How to get your players more involved

2

Comments

  • DiceMasterNick
    DiceMasterNick
    Posts: 56
    I like this idea.
    If a player is willing to invest the time a creativity needed to write a full page on how they acquired a +5 Epic Greatsword of God Killing, why not let them have it?
    Sure, it has the potential to unbalance the game but it adds to the story. And you can always give them the sword broken in half, or say that their uncle in the far north is holding onto it for safe keeping... ect, ect.
    The game really should revolve around the invention and evolution of story at the sacrifice of a "level playing field". The whole point of the Player Character is to get strong and develop as a character right? So maybe their not arduously progressing through levels to attain that growth, but they still achieve it with this method just as well if not more so, and thus a better Character is born. And a good character deserves such rewards.

    Knowing my players however... these stories will only be briefly talked about and never fully developed nor ever written. X(
  • Falchen
    Falchen
    Posts: 20
    I think an even playing field needs to be kept, I have quit games myself when one person became the all powerful and it seemed the dm was writing the campaign for him, it becomes no fun very fast. Now I don't mean you can't have a story arch for one player, it just needs to be also enjoyable for the rest of the group. I played in a game where the fighter was loaded down with loot, an artifact was literally thrown at his feet while my mage who specialized in item creation had the least amount of magic because the DM never let me use my feats, in the same game I took leadership feat (give you a cohort) at 7th level, when I stopped playing the game at 11th level, some 4 months later I was still cohort-less. The game became no fun, and giving one player a +5 epic great sword because they wrote a story about having it will make them dominate combat, making it much less fun for the rest of the party. keeping your players near even is is a must in my opinion.
  • gnunn
    gnunn
    Posts: 423
    I just want to chime in that I LOVE how this thread has rambled and hopped from topic to topic.

    Anyway, I agree that it is important to keep one player from becoming overpowered. I try my hardest to throw out magic items that will be useful or appealing to characters who haven't gotten a goody in a while. Also, when something happens like the group runs into hobgoblin outriders and our ranger uses wild empathy to chill out and tame 1 of their dire wolf mounts, I make sure to take into account the down side of this sort of new prize. (e.g. most inns won't stable a direwolf, because it'll freak out the horses, also it makes the group stick out like a sore thumb, which increases the challenge of traveling incognito.)

    I also LOVE springing backstory plots on my players. When the dwarven warblade joined our campaign, the first adventure the party embarked on was the one that had landed him in the infirmary with amnesia. Our ranger is basically dodging agents of his over-protective uncle who wants to forcibly bring him back home. I have a couple other character-specific plot twists up my sleeve, which have not become common knowledge, or which are only partially known to some players, that are even more epic, but unfortunately, I can't discuss them in case my players read the boards.

    But I agree, it is important for a good GM to have a balance of things that will interest each player/character.
  • mikesmithsm
    mikesmithsm
    Posts: 1
    When I started my adventure, which admittedly is still early on, I tried my best to give each character a section. The beginning is for the Rogue, the middle for the fighter, so forth. I don't focus on just one character, but the NPC's that exist in the story all grew up with the Rogue, later on we will go to a town with that focuses on another character, thus hopefully all the characters will feel special at some point.

    Regardless I give out XP and character stuff like candy for doing anything I think is good for the game. Example my Rogue is a great cook, I bring him food to prepare and he cooks it for the group. i give him XP and a free point in Profession Cooking. I have another player who loves to draw. At first it was just pictures of the characters, now we turn them into Paper minis. Now I've got him making NPC's too. It's great and well worth 200xp.
  • Falchen
    Falchen
    Posts: 20
    I am against giving xp for non game related stuff, I actually only give xp to the party as a whole. I like the idea of basing certain parts of the campaign around players, I had my players create their own back stories, including people and places that I will use if they ever travel back to where they are from.
  • Idabrius
    Idabrius
    Posts: 52
    I find that a truly compelling intro often allows a player to semi-cement their character in their mind before joining up with the party (which is useful) as well as giving the DM many handholds to grab on to for story ideas. This method also allows you to bring aspects of each characters background into various adventures. Of course, this would become tiresome if done all the time, but it's always nice to have an old NPC return from one of the characters' pasts.

    In addition, a strong intro will get players hooked on the setting and the storyline and cause them to put more effort into the game (and non game related things such as character journals).
  • templeorder
    templeorder
    Posts: 18
    ok, so i'm moving from my current platform to OP. My game system as action points... i'm using them as incentive for people to make accounts, do portraits, etc. Only a few things right now... http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/dunstrand-rising/wikis/main-page
    I'm hoping at least to get them creating accounts and taking control of their character.

    Thanks for the ideas in here and arsheesh for the message back on my other post.
    I'm not a huge fan of giving rewards for non-game situations either, but its a big leap to jump into a new paradigm, takes a lot of time, and so i want to reward those that go with me. Of course its not nearly as much as i, the GM, spend on this stuff... but hey.. they are players, what can you do?! :-)
  • Hardhead
    Hardhead
    Posts: 65
    bq. I'm not a huge fan of giving rewards for non-game situations either, but its a big leap to jump into a new paradigm, takes a lot of time, and so i want to reward those that go with me.

    See, in my opinion, a player deserves a reward for writing up a detailed backstory compared to, say, killing yet another orc. I mean, killing orcs is nice and all, but it doesn't really further the campaign in the same way having a fleshed out character does. Most of us play a Roleplaying Game, after all, so rewards for stuff that furthers Roleplay compared to Roll-play deserve a big reward.
  • JimTriche
    JimTriche
    Posts: 483
    templeorder, what constitutes 'non-game situation' though?

    I offer rewards for things like bringing snacks and whatnot because having those makes everyone enjoy themselves more and is conducive to a better game experience. So in my opinion, it's all 'game situation'. Same with contributing to the Wiki (which is a great way to add more dimension to a game world), everything that makes the game more fun and all my players happier is worthy of some kind of recognition or reward. Even if it's something as simple as buying their friends a nifty notebook or a sandwich.
  • templeorder
    templeorder
    Posts: 18
    I require everyone to contribute food except for whoever is hosting. Some people are very generous, others offer to do the cooking, everyone contributes somehow in that way - so i don't reward for that. We're all friends, so i don't feel i should reward friendship gifts - it should be its own reward. Non game situation are nebulous, not everything outside the game deserves a reward. I dont use XP systems, so there's no incentive for killing in my game, just for playing well. I do give out rewards for background, and for players that work together to create a cohesive party (this does not happen often - or its maybe a core of three). Providing character journals/wiki contribution is... ok, but i expect most will not beyond their own character stats. Providing artwork - even sketches, helps it bring things to life for everyone, so i give action point rewards for that.
  • VegasDM
    VegasDM
    Posts: 14
    First I'd like to say that this thread is great. It's a very insightful read into a topic that currently concerns me (player motivation).

    My group plays every Monday. Due to our weird schedules, we can only play for 3 or 4 hours tops, and some Mondays we skip D&D and play board games because some player has to work or something. Now, all DMs of weekly games know it's hard to keep players actively involved in weekly games outside of the one day they meet. And by actively involved, I really mean thinking about the game at all. But distractions at the table and lack of personal involvement in every scene make it even harder to keep their attention at game time.

    I really think giving some sort of reward for generating a detailed backstory or any other story elements will help to keep my players interested outside of gametime and I can use those player-created materials during the game to keep them personally involved. I too level all my players at the same speed, so handing out experience isn't going to work for me, but handing out special in-game rewards, or possibly "luck" points, will work. I envision a system for "luck" points working like so: If you write a detailed backstory, make game materials for the party that are useable in the campaign (like a history of elves, as a previous poster mentioned), or maybe roleplay very well during a session, you get a luck point at my discretion. You can use it to save yourself from a crit fail, maybe nudge a die roll up or down one, or spend it before opening a chest to make sure whatever's inside is really good. Hell, creative uses of the luck point should be rewarded as well!

    Notice that this "system" is very vague. I prefer it like that. Systems can be abused. Rules are bent and broken. Vague is up to my interpretation, which can change from moment to moment. It allows a DM to keep their game manageable.

    Due to schedules being all weird and people going out of town, my group can't meet for a month. I think the character backstory for a luck point idea will be great to keep my players' heads in the game during the downtime.

    You can follow my campaign here: "Shadows of the Dragon God":http://obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shadowsofthedragongod
    Friend and Favorite me!
  • templeorder
    templeorder
    Posts: 18
    In thinking about it, these minor rewards (and it sounds like there is nothing new under the sun - we mostly use a variant of the same approach) tend to be more related to the time they spend, not the specific action. Further, i think that as GM's, many of us go this direction because we spend a lot of time setting things up and want to feel like the players are there, caring and contributing as much as us. Its just not true on the whole. Players, not always, but typically spend significantly less time being involved in a campaign. I almost always have 1-2 email threads, in character, going between our sessions to keep interest up... but thats the limit for most of them. Backgrounds are one-shots... journaling is spotty... art is limited to 1-2 of the players... and that all takes time. So i guess i see where i want my players to spend more time so i feel its more of a group effort... but in reality its still mostly just me. I try not to "bribe" my friends - thats not right (though i have done it in the past and still do it to be funny occasionally), and i'm ok with me being the one to do it all (so to speak - there's no story without them) - its my passion.. nice to share, but not required. I'm pleased with myself that i CAN do everything in a campaign.... i also run consistent NPC's i use as a PC when i play infrequently. (Pats self on shoulder) Let give all the GM's out there an "atta-boy" (or "atta-girl as appropriate).
  • arsheesh
    arsheesh
    Posts: 850 edited August 2010
    Thought I'd revive this conversation.

    Earlier in this thread I proposed a slightly modified version of Onsilius' "Karma":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/minrothad/wikis/karma point system for motivating one's players to take a more active role in helping to build a campaign site. Briefly, the idea was that whenever a player took the time to write up a character journal or create a wiki entry on some aspect of the game etc, the GM would award that player a point (or points). These could be used either to give short term or long term benefits to the player (e.g. "Use" a point to add +2 to your next die roll, or "Burn" two points to re-roll hit points gained at time of leveling). Anyway the system worked marvelously for me and my players at first, but we soon ran into problems. You see, I had not thought to place any restrictions on how frequently these points could be used, and whether or not their effects were cumulative. As a result, my players tended to hoard their points and then spend them all in the tough battles thereby gaining an out-sized advantage over their foes.

    Well the point of my writing here to say that we've finally gotten around to revamping and streamlining the system. One of my players suggested using 4e's notion of Powers as a baseline (we're playing Pathfinder). I took his advice, partially any way, and came up with a new point based system that still rewards players for their efforts at the site but that also sets reasonable restrictions on the use of those points. If anyone is interested, you here is the "Prestige Point":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/tales-of-darkmoon-vale/wikis/prestige-points system. Feel free to use it if you like.

    Cheers,
    -Arsheesh
    Post edited by arsheesh on
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085
    Arsheesh, this is brilliant. Not only will this benefit Wyrmshadow, but my Star Wars campaign as well.
  • arsheesh
    arsheesh
    Posts: 850
    Glad to here it will be of use to you. This was a cooperative project though. I borrowed much of the initial ideas from Onsilius and my players offered invaluable feedback in helping me to work out some of the bugs. Course I'm sure we'll keep tinkering with it. You might find that you need to modify it based on your own groups dynamics as well.
  • FrankSirmarco
    FrankSirmarco
    Posts: 250
    I've done something "similar":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/cthulhusupremusest/wikis/mythos-points-and-you with my campaign as well. It's gotten the players more involved with the site, so I would say it's a success.
  • RaseCidraen
    RaseCidraen
    Posts: 890
    Quite excellent, sir Arsheesh. I simply must -beg- -borrow- -steal- replicate this for my own nefarious purposes...
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    Here is another link that has discussed this topic, just to add ideas- "link":http://forums.obsidianportal.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=2353&page=1
    killervp
    "A God...Rebuilt":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/a-god-rebuilt
    "Duskreign's First Ever COTM":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow/wiki_pages/112011

    Just trying to help out.

  • arsheesh
    arsheesh
    Posts: 850
    Good catch Killer!

    Cheers,
    -Arsheesh
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    I am copying and pasting what I believe is the best, most well thought out, and true statement on this subject, from DamienMaster - make sure you check out his great "Star Wars- Rogue Traders":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/roguetraders

    DamienMaster
    Apr 29th 2012

    Again, CuRoi is on the ball…
    It sounds to me like the problems are with the game and how OP is being used to run or create the campaign, not OP itself.
    OP is a tool and you need to use the right tool, for the right job; namely your campaign and/or gaming group.

    Ask yourself a few questions…
    1) Are you prepared to do most or all of the work yourself? If not forget it!
    2) What kind of group do you play with? Enthusiastic or lazy? Beer and pretzels or weekly epic? Dedicated lifers or casual gamers? Do they have families? Work commitments? Other hobbies? You need to know who your players are and their willingness and capacity to help.
    3) What are your players already doing? Do you get a 10 page character background? Are your players already writing session notes? Are they always pitching you ideas for items, home rules or story hooks? Have an artist who loves to draw all the NPCs you meet? Looks like you might be in luck! If they’re groaning about ‘homework’, maybe not…
    4) What IS the best way to use OP for your game? For most groups, it’s a database for NPCs, items and session recaps. But it won’t do everything. I couldn’t run a nights gaming from OP, simply because of how I like to write my notes and run my game- So I don’t. Don’t make a rod for your own back, use what works for you and your game, ignore the rest.

    My Campaign? Rogue Traders
    Why did I decide to use OP?
    1) I have a committed, mature and enthusiastic group.
    2) I wanted a repository for campaign notes, houserules and NPC profiles (but I still write the game in Word and print it out Module style).
    3) I wanted somewhere to record all my hard work and research somewhere where other GMs with a similar campaign in mind might find and use it.
    4) I was looking for an ’art project’ that would force me to get drawing in my spare time (I’m a professional artist)
    5) I wanted to immortalise the already extensive session notes my players were recording!

    It pretty much sounded like a good fit… And has been! One great thing for my campaign has been player participation…
    I asked my players to contribute one journal entry each session (one per session, not player) so at most it was a once a month commitment.
    And… My players stepped up to the plate and delivered! Every session has at least one entry, the more interesting sessions attracting multiple entries, in fact, as the campaign progresses, a friendly ‘rivalry’ has developed and it’s fascinating, even hilarious to hear the conflicting points of view.

    I give the credit to my players but I have a few tips to encourage player involvement.

    Player Involvement
    1) Be realistic and clear about your expectations
    2) Be persistent without being pushy. Be understanding and patient but keep nudging…
    3) Applaud their efforts. When someone writes up a new journal or adds to the wiki, email your group and say how good it is, why you like it, why it helps make a better site game!
    4) Foster competition. If someone writes a Journal entry, goad the others to respond!
    5) Build incentives into the site to attract their interest and attention. Create sections for them to contribute to, lace the site with hints and secrets (I publish NPCs BIOs!)
    6)Inspire by example. If you want more, give more. Fill the wiki with house rules and background information, maps and illustrations.
    7) Focus on what they DO do, I haven’t had any Wiki contributions yet! But the Journals keep coming thick and (almost) fast so I don’t complain.
    8) Lastly and most importantly, reward their efforts and don’t be cheap!

    Reward
    I started off with a simple reward. Any journal entry got a Character Point (essentially a bonus dice) valid for one session only.
    I was (happily) getting my weekly entry but nothing more, so I decided to experiment and upped the ante…
    I turned character point into a Destiny Point (a character point on steroids).
    Whilst still valid for one session only, it could be used for about half a dozen additional purposes in game.
    The first time someone used a Destiny Point to do something cool, I was suddenly receiving a lot more Journal entries!

    Don’t threaten them, don’t throw a tantrum, don’t cry, don’t abuse them, don’t be passive aggressive and DON’T punish them in game (and don’t ‘throw’ something at them). Be persistent , be consistent, lead by example and don’t be a jerk (not that I’m calling anyone a jerk- It’s just the best rule of gaming)

    Just trying to help out.

  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    I had someone recently PM me about this topic, so I have decided to bump this thread. The statement by DamienMaster above is, I still believe, transcendent.
    killervp
    "A God...Rebuilt":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/a-god-rebuilt
    "Duskreign's First Ever COTM":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow/wiki_pages/112011
    "OP's COTM April 2012":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/a-god-rebuilt-aprils-cotm/

    Just trying to help out.

  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    I recently had someone ask me how I get my players to do logs. Nowadays, with the fact that they love reading each others work, it is pretty self-sustaining. However, I still reward them, and figured I should share.
    CHARACTER LOG REWARDS

    Three consecutive logs (3 separate games in a row) by all players that attend is worth a bonus “Ace in the Hole” for each player— a special item that can be played at any time for a success (or almost success) on any one roll — strike, dodge, parry, skill, etc. For strike rolls (ignore normal bonuses except for contested rolls) it will add 10 to the die roll and a critical strike on a 15 which means a 5 or better will crit and a 4 or lower will hit normally. For dodge rolls the dodge is an automatic success except on a Nat 20 and does not cost an action. For parry rolls the parry is an automatic success except on a Nat 20. For skill rolls it temporarily boosts the skill up to 98% (take into account normal negatives and modifiers). For perception rolls this is considered a Nat 20 — nothing, I mean absolutely nothing escapes this character’s range of perception — even including things not normally visible, audible, or sensible by the character (invis, magically invis, ethereal, scentless, otherworldly, etc.) Any player may only accrue ONE “Ace in the Hole” at any given time. This means it must be played before you can earn a second one.
    6 game logs in a row by any one player also gives an award- a drama card! This drama card must be used over the next 6 attended sessions- in other words, before a new logs in a row card can be awarded.

    We now have over 400 logs through 72 sessions- so it works!!
    killervp
    "A God...Rebuilt":https://a-god-rebuilt.obsidianportal.com
    "OP's COTM April 2012":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/a-god-rebuilt-aprils-cotm/

    Just trying to help out.

  • GuyKilmore
    GuyKilmore
    Posts: 36 edited July 2014
    Huh, I like your Ace in the Hole. I want my players to also create Character Logs for my Dresden Files Game.

    I request the following:
    1). Treat it like a Webisode, Focus it on your Character
    2). It can be written whenever a milestone is spent (Trading Skills, Rewriting Aspects, Trading Powers and Stunts, Buying New Skills/Raising the Level of a Skill, Buying New Stunts, Altering Trouble or High Concept). Basically, describe why you had that change.
    3). It should be at least one well constructed paragraph.
    4). Also, give me a title.
    5). You can post this info in an adventure log on the portal, email it to me to post, send it by carrier pigeon, etc., etc. to get the point
    6). I will use this information in planning our next adventure.
    7). If you do this, your character will be awarded an additional FATE point to start off the next session. This additional FATE point can be "banked" like any excess FATE point earned through Compels.

    I also have a second house rule. Anytime a Significant Milestone or Greater is awarded (Happens at the end of a Scenario, where you basically get a Skill Point) you are required to change one Aspect to reflect upon the events that occurred in that Scenario (When this group did Spirit of the Century they left their Aspects really static and it made compells get dull, I want to encourage change and continued narrative growth).

    I am thinking of my own Ace in the Hole variant, when the Mandatory Aspect Change occurs, if all players post/send me a log then they get an additional FATE point.

    (My players can also change characters between Scenarios, so If they give me a full character write-up history and first adventure as outlined in the original character creation, I will count that as a a log entry too.)

    Thoughts, something I am missing, or sounds good?

    "Dresden Files: Twin Cities":https://dresden-files-twin-cities.obsidianportal.com/
    Post edited by GuyKilmore on
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    Sounds great! Good luck! Let us know how well it works!

    Just trying to help out.

  • GuyKilmore
    GuyKilmore
    Posts: 36
    Will do, I should have my last session for this Scenario this Sunday. The only catch is we are going off our usual schedule because of my real life commitments, so our next session is the following Sunday (We usually go every other). That might throw a small crimp.

    "Dresden Files: Twin Cities":https://dresden-files-twin-cities.obsidianportal.com/
  • onsilius
    onsilius
    Posts: 50
    I reward journals and wiki contributions in my Pathfinder campaign with Karma:

    "Karma":https://karameikos.obsidianportal.com/wikis/karma

    It was slow to get participation at first until someone started accumulating it. When they cashed in 20 points for a level, the levy broke.
  • GuyKilmore
    GuyKilmore
    Posts: 36
    @onsilius:

    I like your Karma system. If I ever run Pathfinder again, I might just yoink that for my own use. Thank you for posting.

    "Dresden Files: Twin Cities":https://dresden-files-twin-cities.obsidianportal.com/
  • onsilius
    onsilius
    Posts: 50
    Cool, hope it works for you. I'm sure it can work for other systems. I stole it from Shadowrun after all. ;)
  • GuyKilmore
    GuyKilmore
    Posts: 36
    So, we had our session on Sunday and I already got one player story out of the five; I will see if anyone follows up. To Encourage people, I sent out the story. If it is the only one, I will invoke the hell out of it to load that player up with FATE points as it gives me things to work with.

    "Dresden Files: Twin Cities":https://dresden-files-twin-cities.obsidianportal.com/
  • Adoraith
    Adoraith
    Posts: 62 edited July 2014
    I have learned that most of my players are just not as obsessed with D&D as i am so I don't expect them to go crazy but I do have a reward system for them. Players can earn "tallies" for any number of things ranging from showing up on time to keeping the campaign journal. These tallies can be spent on small single use buffs or in game rewards.

    Little rewards help but the best way I have found to get people really excited and involved is to weave their character history into the main story line of the campaign. I do require a character history be written for each player character. Whether they choose to share it with the group is up to them. Once I have the history I brainstorm ways to fold that information into the plot lines of the campaign. Adding elements personal to a character has created some of the most interesting role playing experiences.

    I have also been writing a "diary" that the party keeps unlocking entries to that gives clues as to the main objectives of the villains. The diary was warded to prevent reading which requires the party to find ways to unlock each entry. Its been a good way to develop the mood as well as villains in the campaign without using any game time. Right now the group has unlocked three passages.

    "The Diary of Gaelin Marram":https://adoraith-echoes-of-epirus.obsidianportal.com/wikis/the-diary-of-gaelin-marram
    Post edited by Adoraith on
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