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Anyone know how to make combat fun for someone who doesn't like it?
The thing goes like this. I offered to run Keep on the Shadowfell (with the H1 conversion) for a group of friends who are new to the game. One of them is a girl who really likes roleplaying and so far everything is peachy, as they've talked a lot with the residents of Winterhaven. However, if there is one thing she HATES about D&D is combat and, as you all probably know, that's what 4th ED is mostly about. And since most of this adventure is combat, I'm a bit worried. That's why I would like you to help me come up with ideas in which I can make combat more fun for her and for everyone. Please bear in mind that I don't want to change the encounters too much nor allow them to skip too many of them by talking.
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Just trying to help out.
Have you asked her why she doesn't like combat?
Is it the actual thought of fighting that bothers her?
Is it because she thinks it takes too long and she wants more story?
Because, let's face it, at some point we've all been in one of those combats that lasts forever.
Is there too much "rules lawyering" going on?
Is she one of those people who despises math?
You said the friends are new to the game and someone who wants more roleplaying is going to be bored by sitting around while pages are flipped to figure out rules for hitting something and the rolls are calculated.
*But fear not, it is not the end!*
You want to keep her in your game and keep her happy, and maybe straight-up fighting isn't her thing, then give her character something else to do during combat.
Reminder: Not every combat is a group of PC's and NPC's standing in a group hitting each other.
If the NPC's have prisoners, have her character getting them to safety, away from combat. Maybe she finds out key info from one of them.
If the others are hitting each other, have her make a spot check and maybe she sees a lever that raises or lowers something that can help the party.
Don't get stuck in hack and slash.
Keep her in the initiative line. When it's her turn talk to her and find out what she's doing, have her roleplay.
*And here is one of my personal favorites, and it gets overlooked too often!*
Idle hands!!!!
Keep a player like that busy with their hands.
Go to a store. Buy one of those crazy metal or wooden 3-D brain teaser puzzles.
You can get a couple, ranging from easy to OMFG my brain may explode!
During an encounter in your game, have your PC's find the puzzle.
Make sure that they know or guess that by solving the puzzle they will get a very valuable clue or that the puzzle is a key that can only be used once solved.
Don't let anyone touch it between games. Only during a session can it be toyed with and solved.
If they cheat and look the rules up online, punish them by making it a trap that explodes in their faces. =P
I didn't see her post until after I was finished typing mine out.
You both done good!
OldManofDoom
I'm sure you are now very much armed with the tools to tackle that DISLIKE of combat!
Good luck!
twiggyleaf
"Shimring - The Faces of Divinity":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shimring
(a multiplanar 3.5 D&D campaign)
"I met a traveller from an antique land....."
CotM May 2016: Mysteria: set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.
Previous CotM Aug 2012: Shimring: High Level Multiplanar Campaign
Inner Council Member
One thing my wife didn't like was the amount of time between her turns.
Having players plan out what their next action is going to be before their turn rather than on their turn can help speed up the combat.
Also during combat you can always some of the enemies talking. Calling out for the party to surrender, bribes to call of the fight, taunts, threats, catcalls, even minor monologues (there is always background that the PCs would never know in premade modules, but that make the adventure that much more interesting if known).
If you have time before the game you can write out some of these sayings and pass them to her during combat for her to say to the group while roleplaying as that particular monster, while you deal with the next person in the group.
Carl
"Throne of Thorns":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/throne-of-thorns
A Kingmaker Campaign
They are among us!
XCom: Defiance - Campaign of the Month November 2016
Speeding up combat turns is also very important for everyone. I am trying to get everyone to decide what they want to do before it is their turn. I am also encouraging the players to pre-roll dice (with a partner watching) so that when it is their turn they just tell me "Oh Darkarus his a defensive combat value of 8 or less" and I can respond "That hit" and the player says "It caused X damage".
Someone mentioned leading people to safety - great idea that could rely on non-combat skills and creative application of powers. Maybe it is a lopsided combat and the PCs need to convince some guards to join in to ensure victory; maybe spectators need to be cleared out of the way or protected from harm if it is in the middle of a town; maybe there is an artifact in the room that is about to go critical and vaporize everyone and it needs to be puzzled out. Maybe some of the combatants are mercenaries and they can be convinced to switch sides?
Or get extreme and switch systems.
I'm not trying to change this to a DnD sucks or 4e sucks rant. I love DnD actually. However, I've been playing FATE in the Dresden RPG lately and I'm really exctied about how you can easily include non-combat or even "roleplay" into any scene. In fact, you really don't need a distinction during a scene between "comabt" and "non-combat".
We have a few players who are geared toward wepaons and magic and big flashy burny things. I also have one player that is geared more toward illusions and deceit. Both work well in combat. One can say, shoot bad guys in the face, the other can convince him "his shoe is untied" (ok so we're more creative than that but just for a quick example) and add situational bonuses the other players can "tag" to make their attacks even more awesome.
In fact, with the way "hit points" work, a non-combatant can open up a scene by intimidating an opponent which, while it doesn't cause "damage", it very well could eat up the game resources their character has to mitigate physical damage. This makes them easier to take down once the bullets start flying. Makes perfect sense - a heavily intimidated opponent is an easier target and will fold or back down sooner.
Gnunn has a really cool Initiative Tracker that might help out.
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/the-westerlands/wikis/initiative-tracking
4e is, IMHO, one of the (possibly even *the*) best tactical small scale combat games out there, but that is really all that it is. Members of the dev team at WotC have even admitted that they focused on getting combat down, and then threw on a skills system as an afterthought. Then, to top it off, there is no social system or incentive to crate a story. In fact, there is disincentive because if you don't optimize for combat, you hurt the whole party. Everybody in a group has to be relatively equally optimized or a)the monsters that challenge some players will become a cakewalk because of the optimized player(s) or b)the monsters that challenge the optimized players will start dropping the sub-optimized players like flies.
The end result is that every character creation choice must be based around combat, because diplomacy checks rarely kill you if you fail.
On the other hand, if she dislikes combat for other reasons, ex: 'It's too slow', there are other ways to deal with that.
Coppermane's suggestion about initiative tracker(s) is on the money as well. This can significantly cut down on combat duration, as it gives you the tools to keep track of 'everything else'. I would suggest either 4e Combat Manager, or 4e Turn Tracker, but there are others out there that work great as well. One thing I liked about these two is not only keeping track of initiative, but also HP/Bloodied, ongoing damage and/or effects, recharge powers on monsters, encounter or daily abilities used, and basically all the other little things that I used to forget.
Also, limit the amount of time each player has on his or her turn. The players stay engaged more if they have to figure out on other peoples' turns what they are going to do on their own turn. I'm pretty mean and only give each player about 10 seconds to figure it out, but I compensate with a total of 3 party "timeouts" in a combat where they can take up to 3 minutes to evaluate, metagame, and discuss tactics.
And finally, I also would back CuRoi's endorsement of the F.A.T.E. system. My group actually all admitted that the story and roleplay were their favorite parts of our game, and so I switched from 4e to Strands of Fate. SoF does my Eberron campaign better than 3.x or 4e ever managed, to the point where we may end up backing up the story just so they can play out some key points with the characters they wanted to be rather than the characters 4e forced them to be.
I haven't tried the Dresden Files yet (book's in the mail) but I imagine that it will be similarly enjoyable.
If you are at all interested in switching systems, there is a great set of articles by Stuffer Shack called "Playing with FATE" (just Google it) that chronicles their transition to SoF, but it is largely applicable to any FATE system.
From what you say, it sounds as though you have had that very important conversation. As you suggest, I would continue to use the tips in DM2. 3.5 PHB2 also had a couple of good tips regarding being a good player at the table. Check out p144 and 145. I have summarised these "here":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/shimring/wikis/useful-roleplaying-tips and can attest to throwing all dice at once really speeding up gaming quite a bit. The other points should also help - looks like you mainly want to avoid long boring drags, so anything you can do to speed up the process of going around the table will help to alleviate your player's possible boredom, particularly if you keep them engaged in conversation as well. My advice would be to allow more IN CHARACTER conversation than one would normally allow!
twiggyleaf
"Shimring - The Faces of Divinity":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shimring
(a multiplanar 3.5 D&D campaign)
"I met a traveller from an antique land....."
CotM May 2016: Mysteria: set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.
Previous CotM Aug 2012: Shimring: High Level Multiplanar Campaign
Inner Council Member