I hate my players.

RobertBenton
RobertBenton
edited May 2012 in General Discussion
I'm not sure if that is taboo or not, but it's true. It's gotten to the point to where I don't want to DM anymore. I try to create a beautiful world, with only a slight sandbox storyline, and it just gets wasted. All their characters are "flat" characters with no real personality. They seem to only want to be drunks, rapists, murderers, etc. When they get caught the biggest hissy fit gets thrown. They meta-game furiously, and when that is punished, they moan or just quit. There's no ambition, with one player only wanting to go to an arena or set up stage fights, another only interested in his character drinking, and another who demands that his lvl 3 rogue have super powers.

It's not fun anymore, and now they wonder why I don't DM anymore. Why would I want to? They display no teamwork, no creativity, and no respect for the rules or even common sense. Its boring and draining to create and create and create so that a group of whiney psychopaths can take a dump on it. I can't find ways to engage them, or even just let them know that common sense dictates that a string of murders may get you hanged!

Anyone else have this problem? Is there a way to drag them out of this? I love D&D but I'm falling out of it with each play session.

Comments

  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    I am so sorry, Robert. I ended up disintegrating my former group, for doing a player vs player that actually became fist fights for some. I restarted a year later, and made it very clear what I was looking for, and how much I expected, which I admit, is a lot. I have never been happier with a group, which is currently at 7 players, and was at 8 (players voted not to replace the 8th when life got in the way).
    I know some feel that a gm should bend over, but I am too old to do that. The group I have now has helped me make the world, adds to the world (after a year of play, someone came up with something that changed things enough I am re-writing an entire section). It is our game, our sandbox, and their characters. I could not be happier.
    killervp
    "A God...Rebuilt":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/a-god-rebuilt
    "Duskreign's First Ever COTM":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow/wiki_pages/112011
    "OP's COTM April 2012":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/a-god-rebuilt-aprils-cotm/

    Just trying to help out.

  • Invictus
    Invictus
    Posts: 54
    The problems you are describing transcend tabletop gaming forum advice. This is a problem with the physical people you hang out with. They are not interested in the same thing you are. If they are your friends then you need to have a chat with them, if they aren't and are just 'the people i game with' then stop putting effort into this, they don't seem respect you enough to listen even when you appear distressed by their actions. I suggest abandoning any idea of tabletop gaming with them and move onto a different form of entertainment. someone should pick up a copy of munchkin, or Bang! or whatever.
  • arsheesh
    arsheesh
    Posts: 850
    I too am sorry to here of your plight Robert, and as always, am both in admiration and in envy of yours Killer. A good group is worth its weight in gold, and in my experience, is just about as rare. But don't let your players rob your joy Robert. I don't know the particulars of your group, but seriously, if things are really getting you down with this group, it may be time to move on to another one. Tactics may differ from DM to DM on just how to end an undesirable campaign. Me, I'd just TPK a group like the one you describe and have done with it. Then I'd find a new group. Course, if I had good friends in the group that I didn't want to alienate too much, after ending the campaign I would communicate to them the reasons for ending the campaign and, if they were still interested in playing with me, then I'd follow Killer's advice and have a "Defining Expectations" and "Table Etiquette" conversation with them. If at that point they decide to continue on, fine, hopefully the next campaign will be better. On the other hand, if they don't like the expectations or etiquette, then they have no reason to be upset when you tell them that it is best to disband the group. Breaking up a group ain't fun (I've had to do it myself), but sometimes you just have to do it. Course that's a decision you will have to make for yourself, I'm just throwing in my thoughts on the matter.

    Cheers,
    -Arsheesh
  • Crpowers
    Posts: 6
    Wow, this is similar and terrible. Either find a new group, and play as a character for a while. Or give them a taste of their own medicine, kill there characters off. Destroy the crap out of them. When they ask why you did that, confront them with their problems. Either they will quit or heed your advice, and if they quit they don't deserve to play with you mate. You need good, and interactive players who are there for story, and character development. Tabletopping is not about pvp it is about rpg.
  • optimus_mush
    optimus_mush
    Posts: 28
    It seems to me that you and your player's want very different things out of gaming. You want to create a story and they want to wreck some crap without involving themselves in world building. I hate to say it, but someone is going to have to bend, and from the sounds of it, bend a long way. We have all gamed with someone who either doesn't care or cares too much and it usually leads to tension.

    My humble advise is simply this: If you aren't terribly attached to the group, then drop out and find some like-minded players to game with. It you are then either gm a free-for-all munchkin-style burn-em-up game with the old group or get one of them to gm and seek your inner psycho. If you have enough time and inclination, do both!
    Trying to brow beat people who are that out of step with your desired gaming style isn't going to make anyone happy, though, and revenge via TPK usually only pisses the players off. It sure feels good, though...
  • ednoria
    ednoria
    Posts: 17
    I agree with all the above. When it's not fun for you any more, get out and get out quick. If that means changing groups, so be it. Real-life confrontation is hard to do, but imagine how much worse it would be if you just kept on doing what you're doing. Rip off that band-aid!
  • Invictus
    Invictus
    Posts: 54
    I've been thinking about my first response and would like to offer a counter point. The kind of 'watch the world burn' mentality your players are exhibiting is a habit ive seen in players who are really new, those who are just getting used to the do anything freedom of tabletop. its like testing the walls in a cage. When my group had new players who wanted to do stuff like what you describe, we let them. Some of our group got pissy about it but after a wile they got it out of their system and wanted to try something new. One of the best roleplayers ive seen started out like this and if my group didnt just let him run free in the beginning he may have never wanted to do more after he was done being a maniac.

    So my advice is to run the game they want. if they want to just run around doing what you consider nonsense then really all that does is lighten your workload, you dont need intricate plot or npcs or setting, you just need to do stuff that will make them happy. If your first level rogue player wants super powers then maybe thats an indication that they want to play in a game where they're actually powerful. Run that game, make it challenging, create adversaries that they have to work to overcome. Theres this kind of beautiful tranquility in these seemingly two dimensional games.

    Gaming is supposed to be a bunch of people sitting around having fun. as the gm your entitled to that fun too, but so are your players. When i run a game, when im planning something, when im writing an nc, the first and last thought in my head is "will they enjoy this part?". With that said enjoy can mean many things. they wont enjoy fighting a viciously powerful enemy, but they will enjoy the feeling of overcoming it. They wont enjoy when one of their characters friends gets murdered, but they will enjoy bringing the murderer to justice and the memories of the adventure when they look back on it.

    In short, just give them what they want, build the game for them and see where it goes. Overtime you may start to see complexity build itself into their actions and thier characters. if that doesnt happen then when the game is finished simply ask "i want to run this kind of game, we did your thing for the last game may i have a turn at something i really like?"
  • Baalshamon
    Baalshamon
    Posts: 585
    I have experienced simular issues with groups I have been a player with and GM'ed. The cure for this is not simple. What I suggest is writing up a questionaire for the group. Ask things like; what are your characters goals, dreams, hopes, desires, etc. What are your (you the player) looing to get out of the game? Rate these things on a 1-5 scale. 1 being not interested and 5 being, gotta have it.

    Romance
    Combat
    intrigue
    action
    Historical
    Horror
    Mystery
    Play
    Romance
    Sci-Fi
    Spiritual
    Supernatural


    you can add more.

    Once you get an understanding of what each player wants you can cultivate your games to suit the group and you will have a better experience. If the players dont want to work with you on creating the world you desire then look for new players.

    goodluck

    -Steve
    "Star Trek Late Night":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/star-trek-late-night
  • magavendon
    magavendon
    Posts: 112
    Have you tried asking one of them to GM a game? This might spark that inner creativity in the one that agrees to GM if any of them do. Just tell them you need to take a break and would like a turn being a player. When I first started roleplaying (D&D in high school) I was pretty much exactly the same as your players. I didn't much care for the story behind what was going on (albeit my DM didn't have much xp being a DM and didn't provide much for us) and just wanted to smash things and be a murderer and stuff (don't know why that's so attractive >.>).

    After a few years, I was eventually asked to DM for some friends of mine that were interested in D&D since I had been talking about it so much. I agreed and just like myself before them they only really wanted to rape and murder (although they managed to do something with quests along the way) and that's when I realized just how much of an a-hole I was to the DM with my own play style. Furthermore, since I was attempted to create a story for them I realized how much fun it was (for me anyway) to come up with a story (world building didn't become too important to me until a few years later when I started my GURPS campaign). That campaign didn't last very long. I was too inexperienced to deal with the players and college was fast approaching (when we'd split up).

    I did continue to roleplay in other campaigns as a player, and I began to care more about the world. I actually tried to make a backstory with my next character, for once, instead of just messing with the mechanical aspects of the character. When I was done with the backstory I was actually proud to show it off (to my gf first who was quick to tell me that my spelling sucked and the story was kinda lame so yeah...). When it came time to play I actually knew what my character was like, had an idea for what he'd do in different situations. Something besides sitting there thinking, "I should slit that guy's throat and take his coinpurse because I'm a rogue and that's what rogues do." I still didn't much care for the world I was in aside from it being a place that my character could now interact with others and create legends about himself, but now I wasn't running around ruining the game for the GM or the other players.

    A few years later and I've met a whole new group of people in college (thank you Chess and Games Club) who were willing to not only play boardgames with me, but were also into roleplaying as well. It wasn't long before I had decided that I wouldn't mind giving it go at being a GM again and offered to run a GURPS game for my newly found friends. I got 5 players. I had an idea of a world where I didn't want humans being the predominant race (which I keep coming back to) and to fit that idea I decided to create the world they'd play on. I drew a rough map of the continent they'd play on, with the idea that a second continent exists somewhere on the world, unknown to the players at first. I also created a race that had been predominant until Space Pirates came to the world and ruined them. This race went into hiding underwater and still lived there at the start of the game. The other races ("typical" Elves, Dwarves, and Humans) lived on the continent previously owned by the Stroda (previous race) and were not very advanced technologically (although many "artifacts" could be found on the continents). With this idea, I entered the realm of world building and realized that I liked this too. I really enjoyed coming up with history for the players to figure out and other locations for them to find if they chose to go that route. My players never really added anything to the world, but that was ok because they seemed to be enjoying themselves (and they were actually attempting to follow my plot hooks instead of raping and murdering*).

    ==*== with some exceptions...
  • magavendon
    magavendon
    Posts: 112
    A year after starting that campaign I ended it (I was running out of ideas, my players were too powerful for my inexperience to handle), but on a good note with them having created a new city uniting all the races found on the second continent and becoming the rulers of this land. The players were happy with this ending and with the understanding that I would start a new GURPS campaign in a few months for them to play in again. A few months later I started this new game, a sci-fi game talking place in a "possible future" with fake star systems. Almost two years later this is the game I'm running now. Throughout these last two years I've coaxed, swindled, and convinced some of my players to add content to the world, usually in the form of custom worlds created by my players, which are being explored while we play. I'm not doing as well with the story this time as I did with the first campaign (in my opinion, many of my players say I'm doing fine) since it feels very episodic for me (although perhaps most of my feelings that this isn't a good story are coming from my gf since she doesn't like it too much and I see her most often).

    Now that I've typed that all up I realize that my life-story wasn't really necessary for suggesting to you that you ask one of your players to GM for once, but I don't want to delete all of that either so there you go (also explains the two post comment).

    Anyway, try asking one of them to give it a shot and if they don't want to or it doesn't spark that creativity you might heavily consider not playing with them anymore (at least roleplay) and finding another group.
  • DreadGazebo
    DreadGazebo
    Posts: 218
    It's not all that taboo. I wrote "this post":http://dreadgazebo.net/kill-em-all-and-let-strahd-sort-them-out/ a while back and it caused my campaign to come to a halt, we burned it down and from its ashes we've put together the best group and campaign we've ran in years. Perhaps do it with more tact than I did but, sometimes you just gotta' do, what you've gotta do. Good luck!
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    Some great advice here-
    Jerry, still my favorite post ever of yours, because it was so personal, and we have all been there before. In case the rest of you don't know, Jerry does a great blog, "Dread Gazebo":http://dreadgazebo.net/

    killervp
    "A God...Rebuilt":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/a-god-rebuilt
    "Duskreign's First Ever COTM":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow/wiki_pages/112011
    "OP's COTM April 2012":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/a-god-rebuilt-aprils-cotm/

    Just trying to help out.

  • DreadGazebo
    DreadGazebo
    Posts: 218
    Thanks KillerVP!

    In hindsight I also should mention I did a follow up post talking about how I was "less than perfect as a DM as well":http://dreadgazebo.net/how-to-lose-friends-and-alienate-players/. I was being a shit head too, in the end It all boils down to honesty, just be honest with your players and yourself. Eventually the good stuff will bubble to the top.
  • DamienMaster
    DamienMaster
    Posts: 34
    As usual, lot's of good advice here...

    I think you have to locate the source... If it's you, you need to ask yourself why. If you're burnt out, maybe you just need a break; if it's the system or campaign, maybe try something new.
    If it's them... (and after reading your description I would never want to GM a group like that) you might need to find a new group (yipes!)

    But usually it's something in between... You're burnt out, they smell blood and start playing the fool. Or they aren't buying into the campaign and start goofing off, which in turn, feeds your disquiet.

    I would recommend you stop playing immediately, but keep the game night going with a few board games (which will also help to you see whether it's you, them, the game or the dynamic)

    In the end, I think *Invictus* had it right, it sounds like your issues transcend the game and lay with the people.
    Start a discussion about how your'e feeling and why they're acting the way they are and see if you can reconcile.
    If not, find a new group or start again- But only after you've taken break!

    I've been in groups that had to 'discourage' problem players; I've walked away from groups on the first night of play; my favourite RPG blogs are people I listen to for advice, but would never play with; I've played ran 2 player campaigns because we didn't trust the only potential recruits available; I've had to shut down campaigns because players didn't like the system of their characters.
    It's hard to juggle all these different aspects of the game including a good GM, and getting your players buying in to a system but think that the group is almost more important than the game itself and constructing and maintaining a good dynamic can be difficult... but worth persisting at.

    And whatever you do don't give up on gaming because of a few jerks (general advice, not specific to your group)!

    Damienmaster
    "Rogue Traders... May 2012 COTM":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/roguetraders
  • Dranis230
    Posts: 9
    Honestly Robert, if my players were being assholes I would just tell them to shape up or find a new DM, maybe they are tired of RPGs and are just trying a very un-subtle way of letting you on to that. Just find a group who have people who don't want to murder/rape/drink ALL the time, or you could work with what they are giving you and make them bad guys.
  • DamienMaster
    DamienMaster
    Posts: 34
    Scratch what I said earlier, just listen to Dranis230!
  • bluesguy
    bluesguy
    Posts: 127
    I am sorry but characters who want to rape/murder/drink all the time are not going to last long in my campaign worlds. Either the legal authorities will catch up with them and send them to prison/workhouse/sold into slavery or I would let them rape/murder someone of importance in the campaign who hires adventurers who hunt them down and either kill them or capture them for the NPC to deal with.

    And then I would say "What would you like for your next character?" If the did the same w/ the new character I would engage in "wash, rinse, & repeat" from above and it would happen faster the second time.

    Either they would learn this is not acceptable and change their playing style or leave the group.

    That kind of "role playing" isn't (IMO). It is just the ID running wild (see the movie Forbidden Planet)...

    As a GM I will not put up with that kind of behavior.
  • Jyhazen
    Jyhazen
    Posts: 20
    Everyone has said it and said it better than I probably can but when it comes down to it, you only have so much time in life for the things you find enjoyable. Role Playing games are one of those things for you, so make it enjoyable. If the group you have now isn't playing, and refuses to play, the kind of game you enjoy..you need to move on. Either find a group more in line with what you like or find another hobby if that's no plausible.

    Bottom line is, you're the one putting in the time and effort of coming up with adventures and a campaign that goes with it. If they don't respect your time or you personally, you need to find people that do.

    Good luck!
  • vstraydogstrutv
    vstraydogstrutv
    Posts: 209
    Yeah, a lot of wisdom in this post from many experienced people. I'm pretty sure I can tell by your candor that this is the last desperate grasp to keep your group together, and that letting them go is probably the best answer.

    The idea of running a game tailored to their wants is a really good one, but it doesn't really allow for you to exercise that creative mind I know you have. If experienced players are sparse in your area that would be the best way to go. This affords these sociopaths the ability to let them get the bloodlust out of their systems. Keep the consequences low-key, but do sprinkle them in. In time, they will get bored with it and want to explore the more nuanced play style that is seasoned RPG; intricate plots, puzzle solving, diplomatic NPC interaction, etc. You CAN enjoy this barbaric play style by laughing at their actions quietly to yourself knowing full well what would happen if you were running a serious and nuanced game. Knowing when to switch to your preferred style is relatively easy: when you say "role initiative" for the 5th time in the night for the 10th night in a row and they moan that they're getting tired of combat, you know you're getting close. Have them do a questionaire like Stephen suggested, but keep it simple. Once they start bemoaning the hack-and-slash lifestyle, have them do another more intricate questionaire. Create situations where it's in their best interest to help each other. The more love they cultivate not just for their character, but the PC's around them, the more likely they are to question each other about potentially troublesome actions instead of you trying to stonewall them into following your views. Have a few work together to build backstories that play off of each other. The idea of adventuring siblings cast from their family or traveling monks who lost their monastery are good starts. The cultivation of a backstory plays a profound difference on how much they value their character's well being.

    Conversely, politely bow out and say "I like hanging out with you guys, but I f***ing hate the way you play. Lets go fly a kite!"
  • RobertBenton
    RobertBenton
    Posts: 46
    I actually left after my original post. I never expected this much help, and it is much appreciated. The problem runs in the players themselves. I need a new group, preferably one with a more "heroic" attitude. I have a world. I have a unique story. For now, at least, I'll just shine that stone until I find people who can appreciate it and share it with them. I'm going to see what I can do here, maybe get the hang of the site. If anyone knows any sites for teaching some coding, message me. And if you know of anyone around French Lick, IN... Inaquis is always welcome to heros.
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