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Breaking into 4th Edition.
Alright, so I'd like to try something new. Normally I'm here to ask about resources, code, yada yada yada, but now I've got an entirely new branch of questions.
I've been playing 3 & 3.5e for ten years. It's my baby and I love it. Know all the rules, have all the supplements, and the worlds most intimidating bookcase. However, here lately I've been looking at 4th ed. It just looks like everything was made to a more "video game" orientation, which is great, being a very active gamer. That being said, I'm finding the format to be very difficult to break into.I can't seem to find any way to change over simply. This might be due to the fact that I have none of the books, like I do for 3.5, however, it will be hard to justify buying the GREAT MULTITUDES of books I see for it, along with the power cards, figures, maps, etc. with my constantly dwindling salary. I've read a couple articles, watched some videos, and spent hours scrolling through what Google lobs at me, but I'm just getting more and more confused. Maybe I'm just so used to tried and true methods that I'm set in my ways, but I really want to pick up 4th ed.
So heres my questions:
1. Is there a site, or primer, that can help me? I'm going through the SRD, but to little avail.
2. Has anyone made a 3.5 to 4 conversion article or thread that I can look at?
3. My friends are all 3.5 elitests. What is a good way to break them into 4th?
Also, I've talked with a few other people who are having the same problems, so if you are, please post your questions as well. I'm hoping that this can help other people as well.
I've been playing 3 & 3.5e for ten years. It's my baby and I love it. Know all the rules, have all the supplements, and the worlds most intimidating bookcase. However, here lately I've been looking at 4th ed. It just looks like everything was made to a more "video game" orientation, which is great, being a very active gamer. That being said, I'm finding the format to be very difficult to break into.I can't seem to find any way to change over simply. This might be due to the fact that I have none of the books, like I do for 3.5, however, it will be hard to justify buying the GREAT MULTITUDES of books I see for it, along with the power cards, figures, maps, etc. with my constantly dwindling salary. I've read a couple articles, watched some videos, and spent hours scrolling through what Google lobs at me, but I'm just getting more and more confused. Maybe I'm just so used to tried and true methods that I'm set in my ways, but I really want to pick up 4th ed.
So heres my questions:
1. Is there a site, or primer, that can help me? I'm going through the SRD, but to little avail.
2. Has anyone made a 3.5 to 4 conversion article or thread that I can look at?
3. My friends are all 3.5 elitests. What is a good way to break them into 4th?
Also, I've talked with a few other people who are having the same problems, so if you are, please post your questions as well. I'm hoping that this can help other people as well.
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2. I believe it's recommended you don't try to convert directly from 3.5 to 4e, as the differences are too big.
3. Try not thinking of them as elitists that you need to change. Speaking as a 3.5 player, the best way to approach me would be to say something along the lines of "Hey, I really, really want to give 4e a try! Want to play a couple of sessions to try it out?" Don't expect them to drop 3.5 entirely and go on a 5-year-long campaign in a new system; start with a short adventure and make sure it's fun. Whatever you do, DO NOT insult 3.5 in any way. And be prepared for the fact that they might not want to change and the harder you push, the harder they'll resist.
Also consider the fact that they have announced they are working on 5th edition which probably means it will be out by 2014. I am the only one in my group who has actually played 4ed (we are all 3.5 elitists and proud of it) and I did not enjoy the experience at all. I felt railroaded in my character creation and that my character was very cookie cutter if they makes any sense.
-Jaymes
"Changing History":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/l5r-changing-history
-Jaymes
Campaign of the Month Febuary 2013
Second, given that 5e is on the horizon, I don't really see what the motivation to switch over to 4e would be. Why not simply wait and see what the new edition has to offer before investing time and $ into a product that is no longer supported? Anyway those are my thoughts.
Cheers,
-Arsheesh
For some reason, I don't feel as though I was read correctly. I am sorry if I was too vague or if I missled anyone, but let me clarify some things:
1. I do not want to railroad my friends into playing 4e. I have never forced my players into anything, and can only guess at the amount of hate that would happen should I do something like that. I was only looking for a way to help test 4e or to pique interest.
2. I do not want a direct stat by stat conversion for 3.5 to 4e. It would be super-rad and fantastical on a level that cant be represented but it won't exsist. I tried from AD&D to 3.5 and realised the impossibilities of such a conversion. I only wished for equivilancies, such as: "In 3.5 a Barbarians Rage ability did [A] where as in 4 there was [B]"
Now that that has been cleared up, I thank Savannah, Jaymes, and Arsheesh for your collective imput. The main theme so far seems to be that of a rougly $125 trial run by Amazon, (Thank you Savannah and Jaymes) which sounds like something I could reasonably explain to those who look at my finances with an un-blinking eye.
As to the discussion on waiting until 5th Edition is ready (Thank you to Arsheesh and Jaymes):
When 5th Edition comes out I am fairly sure that many will have the same reaction to it as those from AD&D had to 3 and 3.5e, and those from 3 and 3.5e had to 4th. Me probably being one of them. When the new edition come out I will probably be right back here 4 years later asking about it. However, right now I just want to see if the KoA:R/WoW/Diablo look, style, and feel of 4e can be placed on the same table that I have been conducting 3.5e on.
I have a story that can be told on any medium, I just want to re-create the videogame experience that 4e seems to exude.
I hope I have explained myself better. Thank you for your time,
-Rob (Pale)
I believe Jaymes was referring to the 4e _system_ itself that railroaded his character, not you; and I agree with his assessment. For example, 4e completely eliminated the bard and gnome (reverted to monster with no clear rules for monsters as players); which means that one of the most iconic character types was utterly cut out - and 4e is very much geared to straight up dungeon-crawl combat with loads of temptations for power-gamers while simultaneously severely restricting character options. I found multiclassing nearly impossible to handle easily in 4e, and creative adaptations also seem impossible in 4e (unless you happen to channel the creators). I managed to have some fun in one game run by a good friend because supplements had come out to re-institute the bard and gnome, and I got to literally kill an orc with a diplomacy check. It was pretty ridiculous, but in those circumstances it was fun. That's not to say that 4e is a bad system or can't be taken seriously; but it did feel as though less real thought was put into it than 3.5; and I find that on the whole it makes a lot less sense than other systems (why should a bard have an ability that effectively gives everyone limited vampirism?).
As for 5e, I haven't heard much, but I got the impression that it's really supposed to be more of a true 3.75e; harnessing what you call the 'video game' feel of 4e, and the creative options of 3/3.5e; so I must agree with what's been said about waiting for that release before making any permanent choices.
From my mini-diatribe above you may have guessed that I'm somewhat of a 3.5 elitist myself, and from that perspective I can tell you I was willing to give 4e a shot for a reason that Savannah mentioned in particular: that it wasn't a locked-in committment, and a good friend of mine who is an experienced DM was in charge and greasing the wheels for character creation, and said DM was able to go along with what I had in mind, despite the fact that 4e wasn't really geared for it.
- Beaumains
I similarly have been playing in a predominantly 3.5 group. On the eve of 4e, one DM expressed an interest in running the game and we bought the Core Books and gave it a try. However, he dropped out of the group and with him, most of the enthusiasm for 4e. One of our players even vowed NEVER to play 4e again, so we didn't push it. I still have a nice Box Set on my shelf that will probably never see play. One of my main reasons for wanting to convert to 4e at first was the promise of online character build tools and the online grid mapping advertised at the beginning. Both of these were amazing, but without the hardware, the table is something that never came to fruition for our group, who still use paper mainly, and a couple of tablets.
We are still all doing very well in 3.5 and I totally agree with Arsheesh about the dawn of D&DNext turning 4e into the headless chicken of redundancy. I would agree with most of the others that, according to how I read the attitudes of your own players, you are not going to get much support from your group, although Jaymes' recommendation of a SHORT game may work. But somehow, I doubt it. Also consider this, from the point of view of a 3.5 veteran:
It is a much vaunted aspect of the 4e game that it is simpler and easier to play. I did not find this. When we played for a few weeks, I just found it to be another set of rules to learn that conflicted with those I already knew*. I think it can be compared to learning another language. Easy to do for young children without a lifelong experience of one mother tongue, a bit more difficult in latter years. Similarly, 4e may be good and quick to learn for young roleplayers who have not been immersed in 3.5 for years, but for those of us who have, it just seems irritating and pointless, unless we were no longer playing 3.5, which is not the case.
I think Pathfinder did a much better job of adding to the legacy of D&D playing than 4e did, at least for experienced players. I still think many of the 4e tools are good and the design is good too. The little cards were quite handy, but nowadays I am so used to making a whole folder for my characters, that those sorts of simplifications simply do not cut the biscuit.
If you are feeling the need for a change, then I think your players would embrace Pathfinder easier than 4e. It is largely the same but there are interesting additions to the character classes and a few of the tricky concepts like magic of Darkness and Light have been improved. Poison in Pathfinder is DEADLY! And the Pathfinder SRD is really excellent. Other than this, I think you would do well to wait for D&DNext and see what comes of that.
twiggyleaf
"Shimring - The Faces of Divinity":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shimring
(a multiplanar 3.5 D&D campaign)
* _When I say "knew" we all still have to constantly look up rules all the time.
"I met a traveller from an antique land....."
CotM May 2016: Mysteria: set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.
Previous CotM Aug 2012: Shimring: High Level Multiplanar Campaign
Inner Council Member
While what they say about the rules are true, for me the worst thing about 4e was the F *** you they did to the older players by changing the setting.
The gnome was latter put back in, but they ADDED races that were not part of the older editions, forcing DM's to put them into their games.
What really sold it to my players was actually my player with the most amount of bile aimed at 4th. He had been a veteran of 2nd and was only reluctantly playing 3.5. The Box gave him a kind of nostalgia, so he sat down. I led a group through the character creation process with no problems, finally busting out the map. He threw something off to the effect of the "human element" breaking my game. He's still playing and his affection has grown, so obviously it didn't.
Because of the way 4th edition operates, or maybe it is due to the products I bought, we have been playing nightly. We are having a blast. If someone wants to try it, you can do that for about $20.
As I stated in my first post, I want to help others who have wanted to get into 4th but haven't due to complications. Here is what I did to break into 4e:
1) I bought the following:
a)The Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition Starter (Red) Box. $20. This is really all you need as far as how to opperate 4th edition mechanics. It has a solo adventure which teaches character creation, as well as a following adventure to take characters from level 1 to level 2. It is not really neccessary to buy anything else if you are JUST trying to learn 4e.
b) The Dungeon Master's Kit. $27. This gave me a slightly slimmed down version of the DM's guide, a screen and a follow up adventure to take my players to level 4.
c) The Monster Vault. $20. This contained a Monster Manual, of sorts, some monster tokens, and the adventure we are currently on. We're pretty sure we'll hit level 5 before the week is out.
d) Heroes of the Fallen Lands. $14. This is great for additional charcter options beyond what the box offers for Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, and even ads in Ranger. It also gives additional knowledge/bonuses on races.
e) The Rules Compendium. $14. This was just for me. I haven't given it a thourough read through yet, but the gaps that some some of the above Items have within the rules and stats, this book cements up.
This all cost me $95-ish. That is less that what I paid for the DM's Guide, Monster Manual, and Player's Handbook for 3.5e. Also, since my players were having such a good time, I got $20 reimbursement from them and I have 5 players! So technically, I didn't pay a thing!
2) I sat down with the Red Box ONLY to introduce it to my players. This probably helped in the long run because noone wants alot heaped on them from the get-go. We went through the character set up and I was able to quickly answer all questions thanks to the method it had. It does play like a video game's tutorial section, as one of my players voiced very loudly.
3) Used my previous game knowlege and versatility to shore up the small holes. Just because there isn't as many "specifics" as there are in 3.5 does not mean that some quick thinking can't get you out of a hole.
That was it. That was all it took. Twenty dollar start-up fee, one-hundred dollars total spent. Sorta. Thank you guys so much for your help in this, as most of it was mental. I do recommend it for a trial run, and the Red Box sells for 40-90 dollars used on amazon, and I bought it new for 20,... sooooooo yeah.
That's a question you could ask anyone who plays any old edition of D&D ever, including anyone who plays 3.5. And the answer should be as obvious as it is simple: because it might be fun! It sounds like Robert and his group have found a system they like, and I'm thrilled for them. Surely that's what matters.