What Makes a Truly Memorable Villain?

EricAusley
EricAusley
edited February 2012 in General Discussion
The next topic that we (the "Gamerstable":http://www.gamerstable.com podcast) are discussing is the development of the villain in RPGs. What qualities are needed to make a villain memorable, despised, and loved?

(As always, we intend to incorporate this online discussion into our episode so please make it known if you do not want to be quoted or have your name aired.)

Comments

  • Baalshamon
    Baalshamon
    Posts: 585
    The most memorable villains for me have been the ones that seem unstoppable, arogant, and truly dominant of the situation. The kind of villain that makes you very brave character take a step back and say "hold on" because he truly fears he will die if he makes a wrong move. Strahd from Ravenloft was like this for me years ago and I still remember that series of game sessions as one of the best ever played. Another one you probably wont know was Baleer from the Hall of Risks in the game Elric. He was so arogant and powerful that you realized you could do nothing but play his game and even though you knew the game was skewed in his favor you felt that playing it was the only real choice you had. Great villains must come to life. The narrator must make them into something greater than anything else the players have seen. When the players remember the stories, your villain needs to have great quotes. A villain in a recent game told a player to "get his distended rectum out of the bar or die" The players were laughing and retelling that quote for weeks. These are the things that make a villain memorable.

    -Steve
    "Star Trek Late Night":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/star-trek-late-night
    "Ultimate Drama":http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1452186107/universal-drama
  • HurstGM
    HurstGM
    Posts: 205
    I'm not sure what makes a villain to my guys. I will say this i know when i got it right with the response to the villians defeat is massive overkill. As an example after killing an undead Eall from rifts south America my guys decapitated her, chopped her into little pieces, set her on fire, burned it into ashes, took the ashes and placed them in a metal box with a rock, welded the box shot then wrapped it in an iron chain and dumped it into the Atlantic ocean. Now i guess in this case she was an immensely powerful and ruthless woman who chased them across the world almost literally. I guess for me the enemy should be so powerful no one of them can go it alone. They must band together to defeat it.
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    Wow Hurst, there is some true anger against that villain....

    Just trying to help out.

  • AugustusGloop
    Posts: 21
    My favorite villains are the ones that you know are bad, but they have such force of will and charisma that a sort of Stockholm Syndrome kicks in and you find yourself half rooting for them even as you try desperately to halt their schemes.
  • bluesguy
    bluesguy
    Posts: 127
    As for memorable villains the ones I remember from 20 years ago when I played (as opposed my current situation where I am only GMing) were not individuals but organizations.

    For instance in one campaign we were dealing with slavers and ninja. The slavers were native to lands we were in and the ninja were expanding past their normal territory into new lands. At first we were dealing with slavers and having a tough time with them. Every time we disrupted one of their operations or destroyed one of there bases we celebrated (not just the characters but the players as well). Then the ninja showed up and the whole situation changed. The first ninja we ran into kicked our collective butts. He didn't kill us because he wanted to get away. It turns out he was the leader of the ninja clan and was negotiating with the slavers when we ran into him. The GM described the way he moved as "like flowing mercury". After that we started asking - does he/she walk like flowing mercury? sit like flowing mercury? Sleep ...? We were paranoid about ninjas for a long time. Eventually we totally destroyed the slavers and sent the ninja clan back to where they came from. We never defeated the ninja leader but we got to the point where we could stand up against him.

    In my campaigns I usually use a combination of big badass villain. If anyone tries to take him on one-on-one he can kill them like swatting a fly. Usually he will toy with them and then wound them so badly they are out of the battle. In some cases, I have had the villain get into a fight with the players near the beginning of the campaign (without his minions) and have him wipe the floor with them. As the characters are laying there trying to stay alive he will vainly and arrogantly walk away from them and laugh "You are not worth my time to kill." Later the players will encounter his minions (both cannon fodder and sub-leaders) and I try to make sure that every encounter is one tough fight.

    For instance in my current campaign "Valdorian Age - Rising Power on the Frontier":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/valdorian-age-rising-power-on-the-frontier the bad guy is a master level magician who can use necromancer, sorcerer, and wizard spells (all different colleges of magic in my world). The world is magic poor so this guy is almost god like to normals. He escaped from his home country (where there are mages), which he hopes to return to and conquer, to set up a base of operations in the 'primitive culture' (i.e. magicians are very very rare) to build up his undead and living army. He also killed one of the character's cousins.

    He has two lieutenants that are very powerful magicians (one is a necromancer and the other one is a wizard). He also has a retinue of soldiers (former gladiators and troops) who are loyal (and afraid of) to him. He has an elite troop of warriors, think Spartans with steel, who guard the lieutenants and himself.

    The players had an encounter with one of the lieutenants, four of the elite guards and a bunch of minions. The players seriously wounded the lieutenant because the master archer was rolling hot but the rest of the party was hardly effective at all. They got scared.

    Interesting villains have their own goals, plans and time lines. As a GM I try to come up with those, set them in motion and see how the players react to either direct encounters, rumors and hints. I have the villain adjust based on what the players do.
  • Beaumains
    Beaumains
    Posts: 132
    Gotta like Hurst's approach, and Steve had some good points too. When the villain makes the dwarf paladin say "That one, dead, now," you've probably got a good one.

    The qualities that make a villain "memorable" would have to be power and character, in general. I mean these in the broadest sense. Power simply requires that the villain be difficult to defeat, I would prefer an epic difficulty for a final boss (i.e. 5+ levels above the party), but that need not always be the case; it could just as easily be a unique challenge presented by the foe, as illustrated by Steve when he talked about making the heroes play the game. A not-too-distant movie example of this would be the Green Goblin from the first Spiderman (the dastardly choice).

    This overlaps with Character a bit though, but Character I would simply define as the villain's modus operandi. Whether they are devious or straightforward, brutal or slimy, arrogant or balanced - or even cowardly, the way that they enact their villainy is crucial to memorability. It could be something as simple as a calling card, or as elaborate as a villain who carefully crafts a series of events (ala murder mystery villains), or even a villain who doesn't actually want to be found - a villain who's actually trying to get away with the perfect crime (though such a villain shouldn't be human). Of course, Character also means that the villain must be fleshed out as well, with motives, plots, appearance, quotes, demeanor, everything.

    Getting a villain to be despised should be simple enough with people who are at least trying to play heroes; one need only present them with evil, whether subtle or overt. The idea ties into memorability a good deal, but is fundamentally separate. As long as the villain does something that unsettles the players, it could be as basic as kidnapping the princess. The trick is knowing the players, and upping the ante as needed.

    The villain we "love" is a special one, but ultimately is a combination of memorability and despicability - the more despicable the better. Such a villain need not be the grand-daddy of all monsters, however, and can even be as common as a recurring (but persistent) thug. To borrow from the Star Wars universe, the villain need not be Palpatine; Vader Jabba, or Fett will do just as well if not better.
  • Baalshamon
    Baalshamon
    Posts: 585
    I had a though about "another great villain":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/star-trek-late-night/characters/barty-banks only because he is in my current campaign. The villain is weak by comparison to the party and any one of them could destroy him in a fight. Still he is powerful beyond belief. His power lies in mind control. He has the ability to make people truly like him and even love him. Everyone who knows him thinks he is the nicest most wonderful guy in existance. They loan him things and never get them back but are fin with it. One player=character lost his girl, his droid, and his ship to this guy and he is happy to have helped out a freind. This enemy has even hired assassins to kill one of the player-characters and that character is trying to figure out who is mind controlling his friend, because he knows his buddy would never harm him. The players hate this guy with a passion but they cant figure out how to approach him as an enemy because their characters love him and would never want to cause him harm. Power does not always lie in strength, sometimes it lies in strength of character.
  • Beaumains
    Beaumains
    Posts: 132
    Right on Steve,

    I didn't mean to imply that the villain had to be physically tough, or have a specifically combat-oriented challenge, but _any_ challenge that can frustrate the players is bound to make them memorable. If that challenge is particularly vile in some sense, so much the better (for being memorable, that is).
  • Taelus
    Posts: 2
    What make a good villain, I use one to make players make choices they wouldn't normally do. Plus make him a little harder to kill. Its no fun having a one shot villain. How are you suppose to build up some serious dislike.
  • arsheesh
    arsheesh
    Posts: 850
    Hi there Eric, don't know if your Podcast has aired yet or not, but seeing this discussion page reminded me of a pretty good series of articles that Wolfgang Baur wrote a several years back for WoTC on building memorable villains. You can find a link to Baur's "Villain Builder":http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/vb articles here.

    Cheers,
    -Arsheesh
  • Baalshamon
    Baalshamon
    Posts: 585
    I have thought about this subject alot and have come up with this addendum to my earlier posts. A great villain is not any one thing; some are moustache-twirlers or evil geniuses, some are darkly complex, tortured souls, while others are amoral crazies who act wholly on impulse. There is many ways to role-play a villain, but a unique characteristic often binds the truly memorable anti-heroes together: they are at least as complex as the heroes.

    A great villain can be almost entirely pure evil; in the Harry Potter series, much of the climax depends on the idea that the villain, Lord Voldemort, is truly unredeemable and beyond help. Yet the simple motivation of gaining ultimate power is the most basic thing about Voldemort; what makes him a compelling villain is the meticulous explanation of his past and rise to power. The depth of his villainy makes him a powerful and memorable figure, one that will haunt the nightmares of many for a long time to come. His evil is so intense that he is almost alien. No human would ever think as he does nor act as he does and yet we feel a connection with him that is almost cerebral. Puling a villain like this off in an RPG is very difficult but when done the players and GM remember with much fondness, the adventures they had.

    Other villains are complex in their seeming amorality. These characters are particularly frightening, as they seem to live chaotically, choosing actions by impulse or for their own highest good at any cost. Sometimes, these characters are described as gray- or anti-villains. They will occasionally do good, if necessary, but can very suddenly decide to do evil or actions that are detrimental to the hero. The random-seeming pathos of these villains is unnerving and memorable, as they challenge the concepts of ordered systems by their very existence. Far too often new GM’s get caught up in the chaotic nature of a villain and try to make every villain resemble the Joker. Only the truly insane are that chaotic and extreme. While an occasional villain of this nature is good for the story, in general the chaotic/insane is not the one we remember. We remember the methodical, calculating, and insidious. The in your face villain is fun for a time but becomes boring quite quickly.

    A good villain can also be one with motivations or characteristics that are both easy to identify with, and to a certain extent, universal. Creating a villain that is sympathetic gives players a powerful contradiction of emotions. While they do not want the character to succeed in their dastardly plans, they feel true remorse for the pain or fatal flaws causing the villain to react with evil. For the most part, the best villains remind us that they, too, are human. No matter how twisted or dark they might be, they are not so different than you or I. The paths that separate the hero from the villain are complex and uncertain, and great game masters are often able to accurately depict not only the evil done, but also the humanity abandoned. The main goal of the GM should be to make the villain memorable in some way that the players can look back and smile when they think of him.
  • EricAusley
    EricAusley
    Posts: 26
    Thanks to everyone for the great input.

    I will let you guys know when the episode airs.

    Appreciate it.
  • Sorwen
    Posts: 64 edited February 2012
    I know it is late, but adding my 2 cents. Understandable motivation and consistency. Those are the first two prime things I think of about a good villain. It is all well and good the villain wants to rule the world or destroy it, but if the players can understand why he does then the villain is more believable. Rather than "Oh well just another villain". Consistency in what the villain does. The fact he follows his motivation. While the players may or may not guess his next move they should be able to look after the fact and say "I see now". Also if the villain is consistent that helps the players feel they have a way to "win" rather than it just being at the DM's whim.
    Post edited by Sorwen on
  • Athear
    Posts: 21
    I Like The villain that make you truly feel bad for defeating. Some one like said by Stephen the players can identifie with though I try to take it a step further. by creating a antagonist who Is in no way evil but rather simply stand in the way of the PCs goals if you can make this person stand out and constantly get in the way of the parties ambitions than you have a huge impact.
  • RobertBenton
    RobertBenton
    Posts: 46
    Here is an example:

    You can find a great "villain" style in The Elder Evils(3.5e), chapter 6: Pandorym. Two of the main villains, including Pandorym, are not inherently evil. Both Pandorym and Obligatum VII are just following "programming" so to speak. Pandorym just wants to uphold it's end of a bargain that was struck ages ago, and Obligatum only wishes to free Pandorym because he needs to fullfil his end of the bargain. Both forces have Joker-esque stories. "They cannot be bought, bargained, bullied, or reasoned with."

    If you wish, delve a little deeper, and look at the history of Obligatum. He is the seventh in a line of kolyarut specifically created, in a different plane, for the pourpose of freeing Pandorym. "Well, he IS a heartless machine..." Have him slip a gear and find pride or sorrow in his lineage. It will only strengthen his resolve anyway. If the group defeats him before his task is finished throw in line like, "Obligatum VIII creation pro-pro-process begin. Find success my brother. *Click click whirrrrrr screech*"

    Other simple things can be done: Have a NPC run with the group as a healer or another useful or well liked character, only to join the enemy for a reason beyond any control. Have an enemy kidnap influential people only to find he was putting them in stasis so a greater evil would not find them as it swept everything from the land. Have an ancient, fully articulate, well mannered, and kindly tarrosque destroy a continent slowly and in sorrow, because he is commanded by a god of evil or lawful neutral. Truly memorable "villains" are normally powerful, charasmatic, and very very human in there actions.

    It's never the lich-king necromancer,... its the corpse of a friend, moaning his appologies, killing you against his will.
  • Kyoh
    Kyoh
    Posts: 3 edited March 2012
    You can easily make a villain memorable by giving him traits that you wouldn't expect to find in a villain (or taking away traits you would normally find). Taking away power from a villain, making him a weak man, but placing him in a position that grants him immunity (say a protected politician) would make for a unique challenge.

    A character with a past is always more interesting, the same holds true for villains.

    An example:

    Suppose your characters encounter a typical assassin type villain, and are in pursuit of the man, though all they have is his name. Fate has, for whatever reason, made him a high priority enemy with the party. They ask around and find the place where he was born, say a small village on the coast. A few of the elders there remember a boy by the same name who'd grown up in a fisherman's family, though some pirates raided the village long ago and killed his parents, forcing him and his sister to move to the nearby city with their uncle.

    The party continues their search there and find that his sister owns a small bakery in the city. She explains that her uncle was an abusive drunk who whored her out for coins. The sister hated her brother for his weakness and inability to protect her. But one day, he killed their uncle and fled the city, and she hasn't seen him since. However, she would receive a pouch of coins every year, which helped her get her life together and allowed her to open the bakery she runs today. She knows beyond a doubt that the coin comes from her brother; every pouch contains a beautiful piece of scrimshaw, something he was fond of. A collection of his scrimshaw carvings from over the years are hung up in her shop.

    Following other leads takes them to the seedier parts of town, and there they find the beginnings of where he honed his craft that has turned him into such a fine killer. The past gives clues to his character and also, in this instance, makes him more human and likeable. Power means everything to him; he was once powerless, when his parents were killed, when his uncle abused his sister. It keeps him safe and allows him to protect what he loves. Perhaps his psyche is so dependent on his own ability that should he ever be defeated, or rendered helpless, he has a mental breakdown, maybe even reverting to his frightened inner child.

    The assassin is very relatable in this scenario: he shares a common background with most PCs (tragic family events), he tries to protect those he loves in his own way(his sister). The execution and method is all that really differs from those of heroes (even then, maybe not). After learning so much about him, killing him may be a bitter-sweet victory. Let's say his sister thinks that her brother is living an honest life, and knows nothing about his true skills. As he lays dying, perhaps he begs the PCs a favor: that they keep sending his sister the coins from his savings and the scrimshaw from the collection he has accumulated and tell her nothing of his true exploits, letting her believe that he died an honest man, like the brother she had known and loved.

    Tragedy, courage, & love; traits not often found in a villain, but can sometimes create one more memorable than great power or malevolence.
    Post edited by Kyoh on
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    Kyoh, very well said!

    Just trying to help out.

  • Athear
    Posts: 21
    One of the ones I like that i'm planing on pulling on my Pc's. A young girl from a small town of little coincidence here's of the Pc's or better yet saved by them But is lost amongst the masses of cheering crowd. she realises that so long as she is just a commoner she will never earn the notice of the object of her affection. training hard she either learns to become a master magician(sorceress) but has many misadventures of her own (several destroyed towns). Alternately she aims to become a master thief And gains the PC's notice that way.

    I will personally use the sorceress because she just has no controll over her powers not any malicious intent and It leaves me open to play with possession and things like that. I quite prefer to push my PC's to think carefull befor taking a life because in most of the Games I've played the enemies we've faced carries no emotional weight..
  • Black_Vulmea
    Black_Vulmea
    Posts: 277
    Late to the party, I'm afraid, but my favorite villains are those with whom the adventurers have common cause.

    In _Le Ballet_ , a expatriot nobleman claims his half-brother, a marquis, is a Spanish agent and a traitor to France. He is enticing the adventurers to help him seize the marquis' castle and capture - or kill - the marquis himself. The expat's ally is a fencing master and former soldier, who killed a ally of the adventurers; the fencing master is key to proving that the marquis is a traitor, which means they could find themselves fighting alongside a man on whom they want to take revenge.

    Mike aka Black Vulmea
    "_Le Ballet de l'Acier_":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/le-ballet-de-l-acier - swashbuckling adventures in the age of the Three Musketeers and Captain Alatriste
    Featured Campaign of the Month - August 2011
  • Khunkwai
    Khunkwai
    Posts: 5
    A good villain is one that makes the players themselves hate the villain. If you can reach beyond the characters into the minds of your players then you have a great bad guy. One that the players fear and hate. Especially in a game that goes deeper than just the PCs. Games that use kingdoms, houses, families and so on, that the player needs to consider before taking any kind of overt action. Doubly so if that villain has some level of control over them. One that they could take down if they wanted to, but only at great personal sacrifice. The typical arrogant over bearing Lord or King who the players are pledged too through blood or their lord. That they have to obey or see their people suffer the consequences. Yes they could charge the cruel king as he lounges on his throne, they may even strike him down...but at what cost as they are themselves struck down as killers of the king, and their families / lands suffer the consequences. A great Villain should force the players to consider the ultimate sacrifice of their own lives in order to bring about a better world. And when he dies their should be great celebration... and or incredible hushed relief.
  • Burnttoastking
    Burnttoastking
    Posts: 3
    As a GM I have to say if you want your players to hate/fear a villain, you need to give them a reason. The generic baddie who's done some generic bad things is boring and will likely play through like a thousand games before. But if you make your villain go after something personal to the PCs, then things get interesting. My case in point, during my current game Red Sun, I was baffled as to why my arch-villain wasn't quite feared, it wasn't until he killed a NPC that my players loved did they start to respect/fear him. That tactic is a very simple one. Make it personal.

    I've also found that Rich Burlew's "Villain Workshop":http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html over in Giants in the Playground is incredibly valuable and I don't make a single baddie without it.
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,998
    That is a great link!! Thanks Burnttoastking!

    Just trying to help out.

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