Cheating

Baalshamon · January 2012

Do any GM's cheat for their characters? I mean when the character that your player is so attached to, he might break down and cry if he died, do you cheat to allow him to survive a lethal attack? Or do you ever cheat to keep an enemy alive longer because the players wiped it out to quickly?

On the flip side do you ever catch your players cheating at dice rolls? What do you do about it? I had a player not long ago turn on the party. He should have died about four rounds into the combat but cheated and stayed alive for ten and only died after he killed another player. This guy doesnt play with our group anymore, but it makes me think about other games and I wonder how often it happens in your games?

ednoria · January 2012

Only time recently we had this problem was with our (then) 13-year-old nephew. We finally started making him roll where his sister could see him.

In the past, I've used this strategy when I catch people cheating: "Ok, you win the game! That's right, you win everything! You're now level 1,000,000, you have all the treasure in the world, and you've beaten everyone and everything. Go you! Now you don't have to play any more."

Sometimes that works, sometimes not, but it does help give them a bit more perspective.

magavendon · January 2012

I often cheat for my players. Some of them would just quit if anything bad actually happened to their character and so I cheat rolls for everyone.

I don't know about my players. It would be too inconvenient for me to have to specifically watch every single player's roll since I have nine active players and we usually play in a big room at our university. I like to assume that they aren't lying to me and that's good enough.

But if I ever feel they've had it "too good for too long" I'll sometimes cheat rolls to hurt them as well. :P

Savannah · January 2012

It really depends on the game, the players, and the situation. I am willing to fudge the dice, but it's very rare (one example -- in a play-by-post game this one battle against minor enemies had gone on for over a week due to crappy rolls on the players' part and everyone was getting frustrated with it, so I decided that the next hit would drop the last creature, regardless of how many hp he had).

GamingMegaverse · January 2012

As far as players cheating, we play over Skype, with real dice, and rarely do we have videos trained on the dice. On occasion I will announce a roll goal of high, mid or low by pm-ing another player, and having that other player announce it after the roll is given. It has eliminated any possible cheating (and had a classic "1" roll on a D20 called low becoming a critical blow taking out an enemy)
As far as cheating for the characters or npcs it does occasionally happen- like Savannah, I have cut battles short, and I have healed npcs to make battles longer. For characters I have missed on hit rolls if they were doing an exceedingly good job of roleplaying. We do have resurrections possible however.... in fact 3 of the 8 players have died once. If the character died I do not think anyone would quit- in fact one who did die seriously considered doing a new character.
killervp
"A God...Rebuilt":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/a-god-rebuilt
"Duskreign's First Ever COTM":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow/wiki_pages/112011

HurstGM · January 2012

I don't Cheat my characters. Ive fluffed dice rolls on occasion but never to kill or hurt them. Sometimes im cutting them a break especially with a new system or game, but as the game goes on i get more and more strict. Plus in general i roll in the open so they can see it. I only hid things like challenged skill rolls or when i don't want them to think or i want them to think they are getting ambushed. I thought about using computer for dice rolls but in the end i prefer the real thing.

DarkMagus · January 2012

I let the dice do their thing most of the time, but when it suits the story I roll just to make the sound of dice rolling and continue the narrative. There have certainly been times characters should have died, but its supposed to be a fun game and a bad roll on their end or a good roll on my end shouldn't interfere with the narrative and the momentum. I let the dice be arbitrators of fate only to an extent. I have actually let players re-roll before, or cushioned the fall so to speak when they have rolled bad. For me its all about story.

When players cheat on the other hand I get pretty upset, because like I said above, its supposed to be a story, not a competition. We had a kid once who rolled lots of crits when he rolled on a coffee table in the back of the room, but when he rolled at the table he didn't roll so many crits. After a while we agreed that rolling on the table in view of the DM was the rule.

Black_Vulmea · January 2012

bq. Do any GM

Sorwen · January 2012

Yes. I don't do so all of the time, but if an encounter ends up easier than I planned to more difficult then I thought I'll cheat it a bit. I might lower an armor class here and there or make sure a crit isn't a crit. Or if it is supposed to be a reoccurring villain for the story I might fudge in his favor if they were going to take him out too soon.

In d20 I wouldn't always call it cheating though. If like me you use average hit points and if a monster has suddenly a bit more then they generally it is still within normal hit dice. Also I will not fudge to hurt players unless it is tied to giving them a reward. I never plan a story to require a sacrifice at any point. That is what I have party NPCs for.

Oh and to player cheating I've not had it enough to matter much. Still I can flub rolls on them too so I think it evens out if you do know about it. ;)

DMStoryteller · January 2012

It depends on the situation. Most times I take the rolls as they are, but I might fudge if it means they will die or if they are trying something creative and interesting that they only have a tiny chance of actually succeeding it. Sometimes, though, I cheat against the favor of the player if it is plot important. (If you happen to be one of my players, though, my previous statement was a lie.)

As for players cheating...meh. I give them the option to roll a long list of d20s and send it to me. I do change the order before I use it so they can't predict a success or failure coming up, but unless they send me a list of all 16+ rolls, I don't worry too much about it. If they really feel the need to cheat, then that is more their problem then mine.

FrankSirmarco · January 2012

Sometimes, a lot depends on how the rolls are going. Especially at low levels, a bad night of player rolls can turn what was supposed to be a cake-walk encounter into a struggle. If the GM is rolling well, a few poorly-timed critical hits could end in a TPK. So, what's more important - maintaining a hardline stance on rolls, or slightly altering the storyline to keep the PCs alive and happy? There's a fine line between creating a challenging role-playing experience and making things too easy.

Then again, if someone keeps altering their rolls or bending the rules to their favor, it's incumbent upon the GM to speak to that player to let them know that cheating cannot be tolerated - especially if their cheating is negatively affecting the group's overall enjoyment.

At the end of the day, it's all about the overall enjoyment of the session, right?

DMStoryteller · January 2012

I should be a little more clear: It is all about the party enjoyment. So, yeah, if a player is cheating and it is messing up things for the rest of the group, that is a problem. If it isn't blatant cheating, though, and the rest of the players aren't taking issue with one PC doing a bit better then they really ought to be...Then I feel it is better to let it slide then start drama.

Morrinn · January 2012

I think every player and DM has fudged a roll at some point, or allowed an extra saving throw if skill check to get out of a particularly sticky situation.
Generally I think it's something to be avoided, an indication of a system or story's particular stress point, but if it serves to make the game more enjoyable, there should be no harm.

HurstGM · January 2012

Like with many GMs ive given the enemy more HP or avoided that crit. Especially if its the big bad guy and in the end I want them to feel like they earned the victory or the defeat as the case may be.

magavendon · January 2012

I recently played a session where we just kept rolling bad roll after bad roll after bad roll in one fight. It was getting to the point that it was starting to look like it was going to be a TPK even though we were just left on one creature that was only hitting one of us for less than half our health per turn.

The DM started asking the players if they liked Batman and if they said yes he gave them just enough bonus to actually hit.

HurstGM · January 2012

Batman? I would have given a penalty or an auto crit for that

twiggyleaf · January 2012

We generally don't have much of a problem with this. Occasionally I expect someone conveniently forgets to add some kind of negative that they should be carrying, but generally speaking I think most of my players are pretty up front about things.

I also generally keep things as they occur when I GM, although will occasionally lessen damage rolled or change a DC if things are looking massively BAD for all concerned. I have never presided over a Total Party Kill, but my encounters _are_ dangerous and with two deaths, insanity and level loss in a group, I find everyone is crestfallen enough without having to wreak even more havoc by allowing BAD LUCK rolls to take control.

I also believe that with the amount of effort people have to put into their characters these days, I have a duty not to continually destroy my players' enthusiasm and for this reason sometimes err on the side of the characters. Equally, if I find that the players are not being challenged, I may add a few elements to make an encounter more difficult.

twiggyleaf
"Shimring - The Faces of Divinity":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shimring
(a multiplanar 3.5 D&D campaign)

Langy · January 2012

I don't think we have much cheating going on in our games; we play over Skype, but we use a die roller add-on to allow us to roll in the game chat window - it's basically impossible to cheat that way. Then again, there isn't much need to cheat - we play GURPS, and many of the characters have Luck (an advantage that allows the player to reroll almost any roll he wishes), and you can also spend character points to either purchase success (make a roll a success/failure) or to turn a potentially horribly damaging, disabling, or killing attack into a 1 HP wound.

As a GM, I don't straight-out 'cheat', but I do sometimes alter monster stats here and there so that they act more like I was anticipating; if I realize 'oops, I forgot to give these monsters X ability even though they were intended to be able to do X', I just go ahead and do so; on the same coin, I might realize 'oops, giving this guy a skill of 18 was a total mistake' and fix that. Those are more in-play balancing adjustments than cheating, though, and I don't do it very often - I can only think of one time where it came up in my history of GMing.

MedullaOblongata · January 2012

In the beginning of the campaign, yes, I'll fudge the dice so that the PC's don't get offed right away. Sometimes they'll have a bad luck streak with rolling their dice and the enemy's beating on them... they just finished making their backgrounds and putting a lot of work into their character, and it'd be a waste to make them do it all over again if I'm rolling a winning streak >.>

CuRoi · February 2012

My job isn't to kill them but create an entertaining story. My dice on the other hand, tend to enjoy killing players (I roll much better as a DM). Often I roll in front of the players so the players have come to fear the Fiery-orange Die of Player Killing. However, in any system, I reserve the right to alter things on the fly to provide a fun challenge for the players.

In DnD, yeah I've been known to fudge rolls for players. There are too many "save or die" type things or "save or suck" things. They can add a lot of great tension to a combat but you also never want a player sitting there bored for hours because he missed a single roll.

So far in Dresden RPG, the system has fudge factors built-in. For instance, it's the winners decision as to what happens to an opponent when they are "taken out". I usually announce ahead of time if -death- is an option. Otherwise, it could mean that player is beaten senseless or has their brains scrambled past insantiy and into a coma. Most bad guys (especially with wizards and death curses and the like) find keeping someone around isn't a bad idea and bargaining chips are extremely important.

I watched an obnoxious player start cheating and trying to dominate a a game once. It would have been socially awkward to call him on it (the host of the game was his best friend, I was a newbie to the group). I tried dropping a few hints, maybe a bit too subtley, even setup a skill challenge that essentially required cheating to win. I pointed that out, got nowhere, so I just left and took my game elsewhere. Many of the players followed; the group was becoming pretty toxic anyway. Otherwise, in my established campaigns, I've seen it happen a few times. I'll call people on it if I see it, but it's rare cause I'm picky about who I play with :)

Yoshara · February 2012

There was a fight in one of my 3.5 games where one of the players hit one of my NPCs with a triple crit (we have a special rule if you role 20s multiple times you can do tons more dmg) and killed her instantly. This was an arena style combat and this NPC was the healer so safe to say that fight would have been really easy if I let that go so I pretended like it was an Illusion he hit. I did this because it was supposed to be a challenging fight and I know they have fun when its more challenging. I do know I pull rolls in their favor but there wasn't a huge one I can think of. I do it for story, if they do something stupid then I leave it all to the dice.

Player's cheating? I know one would never cheat. He wouldn't have fun, hes one to roll with the punches. The others, if they do and I catch them, I don't mind letting them know doing so will get them banned from the game.

Beaumains · February 2012

I would (and have) fudged the outcome of an encounter in favor of a player, but that was in large part because I wasn't satisfied with the way I presented the threat, and the fact that it was a side encounter that was randomly generated. Under similar circumstances, I would probably rule similarly. However, while I don't necessarily roll the dice openly, I do generally opt to stick with them. Now, generating arch-villains on the other hand ... that may be another story.

magavendon · February 2012

This isn't so much as fudging dice rolls, but I once completely forgot to have the enemies attack any of the players for the entire combat. Of course none of them asked me about it until after I had declared all the attackers dead or apprehended...

Baalshamon · February 2012

I've done that too, magavendon, Funny how they call you on any rule violation until it benefits them.

GamingMegaverse · February 2012

Actually, once that happened with me, and since they lived through the first round, 2 players, at the same time, said that they were scared because the enemy had not attacked yet! I laughed so hard!!
killervp
"A God...Rebuilt":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/a-god-rebuilt
"Duskreign's First Ever COTM":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow/wiki_pages/112011

ArcadianRefugee · March 2012

I fudge dice rolls if it enhances game play in some fashion, enhancing the story or dramatic tension. That said, I do this for both the PCs _and_ the NPCs where deemed necessary. I also allow certain rolls to go through even if it means a character is put out of action the first round or what I planned to be a long-term enemy is killed off during their first meeting; again, this is also to build the story, either drama ("OMG! They killed Kenny!") or let the characters build their legends.

I suppose, really, it depends on my mood and how impressive things might be.

Baalshamon · April 2012

Fudging for the betterment of the story is never a bad thing

~Steve
"Star Trek Late Night":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/star-trek-late-night
"January 2112 CotM":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/star-trek-late-night-januarys-cotm/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=star-trek-late-night-januarys-cotm
"Duskreign's CotM December 2011":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/wyrmshadow/wikis/122011

brandini · April 2012

I've never intentionally cheated either as GM or player.

As a player, I find cheating rather pointless. Half the fun for me is taking what limited resources I have making the most of them in any given hypothetical situation (any sort of encounter). Cheating just removes my purpose for playing the game.

As a GM, Well, a GM really can't cheat unless they themselves refer to it as such. Whenever the usage of GM cheese has been brought up against me, My usual response is "you know... that one feat." Any good RPG has the "limitless" factor where you could theoretically do anything.

In regards to fudging rolls to keep players alive, I have never done that. I've always had "divine intervention" keep them alive then use that as a plot device. One of my "golden rules" is "Gm's should never recant what they say and never turn back time without having an NPC cast the spell."

I accidentally did that in an encounter... had the monsters appear and do nothing for 3 rounds while they were slaughtered. When questioned, I looked at the player and in a surprised voice said "I know! You just slaughtered those creatures unprovoked!" Other fun excuses are along the lines of "They had a muscular/nervous disorder that caused them to go into shock and become temporarily paralyzed triggered by the fear of the mere sight of the party" or for a more serious reason "They had a delayed magical/poison paralytic effect that just happened to kick in at that time."

Jyhazen · May 2012

I'm with Arcadian Refugee, I'll fudge the dice if it helps to build story and enjoyment. I've changed crits to normal hits before and hits to misses when PC's were low on HP's or just rolling badly.

On the other hand I once had a crit hit rolled by a goblin archer on the first encounter for a new group. They were shocked when the bolt impaled itself in the Paladin's forehead...The player was more than a little pissed, but it really set a tone for the following encounters. They were a little more careful and planned things out better.

Like I said, if it helps the story and makes it fun, or can create a long lasting impression, I'll fudge the rolls.

Raven_JT · February 2013

I know, old thread but it's new to me. LOL I was always told by the person that taught me gaming and DMing "You as the DM draw the outline for the pictures, your players color in the pictures." And what fun would it be if the only color was red? Plus it's called a ROLE PLAYING game, not a dice game. I always roll my dice behind a screen, or a book or whatever out of site of my players(granted my players are my wife and kids). In the end, yes I've fudged some dice rolls and outcomes. But as has been said before, only if it benefits the story of the game. I have had PC's die, I've killed characters...well I haven't, the dice have. But to me the story and the rollplaying is MORE important than what the dice say sometimes. It's not so much rules, more of guidelines.

Like the last session we played, my oldest daughter(in a Serenity/Firefly type setting) wanted to flip off the roof she was standing on, land on the ground and take off running towards an enemy. She rolled really well for the jump/flip/landing...but when she went to take off running, yeah...not so lucky and she fell flat on her face on the ground. BUT...in her own words, that fits the character idea she is playing. She laughed...and to me, THAT is what is important that a lot of people forget. It's supposed to be fun, and if a player is constantly making new characters simply because they're rolling badly, what fun is that?

Andrew_Hart · April 2013

To be honest I'm beginning to take a leaf from the Dresden-verse, and break my games down into 'scenes' and 'episodes' (lots of other systems do this; I chose Dresden because it was the first time that I've seen it). I'm also getting around to the idea that dice should only be rolled to further the story- where there is an opportunity for the story to fork; oh and also battles. It currently seems to be working well, since much of our games are spent Rping. Having said that I will occasionally get players to roll dice, even though I already know what the outcome is. I use this sparingly, and always to create the illusion of chance.

In terms of 'cheating', I don't think a decision to ignore a rule, or a possible outcome should be classified as 'cheating'. Ultimately we are creating a story- everyone around that table helps to shape and influence the events- if an outcome is so severe that it would generate a strong negative emotion/effect then it's probably not the right outcome. The more detail that an individual puts into their character, the less we should allow them to be 'killed off' by some freak die roll. At least that's just my opinion, and it's definitely been shaped by the games we've been playing recently.

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April 2024 Season of Strife

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April 2024
Season of Strife