Firearms in 4e?

libranchylde
libranchylde
edited July 2011 in General Discussion
Hey Guys!

I am currently preparing a campaign setting / world design for 4e and I have come across a dilemma. To include firearms or no? Initially I thought no. It would unbalance the game. Then I thought, if you keep it in context of a medieval world turning toward the renaissance, then black/gun powder is a reasonable invention to have. Any firearm would be muzzle loaded and would slow down the reload and effectively make them encounter weapons / powers. While the damage would be higher than other ranged weapons, the reload time would keep firearms in line power-wise with other weapons and power levels.

"Verdenheim":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/verdenheim
"Miscellany":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/verdenheim/wikis/miscellany

Would love some feed back on what everyone here thinks.

Thanks

Comments

  • DarkMagus
    DarkMagus
    Posts: 425
    I don't know the 4th edition rules on fire arms, but I am playing in a pathfinder game right now that has steam punk elements and I'm not sure exactly which book the DM is using for gun rules, but they definitely aren't OP, in fact the gunslinger is often overshadowed by the cavalier with a great sword.

    Good luck Libra!

    DarkMagus
  • igornappovich
    igornappovich
    Posts: 76
    I've had some fun in various games by having guns be roughly equal in power to crossbows.... and then having the players run into NPCs toting guns that have been magicked up a bit (faster reload time, flame or ice effect on hit, plusses to hit and damage, etc).
  • timwbrown
    timwbrown
    Posts: 2 edited August 2011
    Here's what I came up with for my campaign - very much a test-and-see...

    All guns are considered Simple Ranged Weapons for purposes of powers, feats, class features, and other rules.
    There are two kinds of guns:

    *Pistol*
    Simple one-handed ranged weapon
    Cost: 35 gp
    Damage: 1d8+4
    Proficient: +1
    Range: 10/20
    Weight: 3 lb.

    *Musket*
    Simple two-handed ranged weapon
    Cost: 60 gp
    Damage: 1d10+4
    Proficient: +1
    Range: 15/30
    Weight: 10 lb.

    Properties
    *High Crit* _A high crit weapon deals more damage when you score a critical hit with it. A critical hit deals maximum weapon damage and an extra 1[W] at 1st
    Post edited by timwbrown on
  • corrinavatan
    corrinavatan
    Posts: 4
    I'd leave them out.

    You're either going to be doing one of three things:
    1. Guns are vastly superior to any other ranged weapon, and nobody picks anything else.
    2. Guns are balanced with crossbows/bows.
    3. Guns are vastly inferior to other ranged weapons, so why did you bother doing the work to bring them in?

    Take, for example, timwbrown's take on guns. I do like the way he did damage expressions, but if I were to build a ranger in his group, for example, I would NEVER pack a gun. I'd stick to a repeating crossbow/longbow.

    The reason is, I CAN'T RELOAD IN BATTLE, I need to switch to a new one. That would mean that a power like Twin Strike, which gives me two shots with a ranged weapon, would not be possible, as the gun only shoots one shot at a time.

    What about being granted extra attacks? A warlord would be useless to someone who has a gun, because, hey, I shot my gun my last turn and didn't have enough actions to swap for a new one, thanks for granting me a ranged basic attack, you want me to throw the gun at him?

    Personally, I would just create a "superior high-crit repeating crossbow" and re-skin it as a gun, and you have to spend a feat to be proficient in it. But, honestly, I have a hard time wrapping my head around "guns exist, but are only slightly better than crossbows"
  • timwbrown
    timwbrown
    Posts: 2
    Probably the biggest factor in deciding how to define guns is...how you define guns. I mean, guns and medieval/renaissance weaponry can mix in a number of ways, cinematically and historically. In the rules I posted above, I was looking to catch the flavor of very early firearms, before they took over the battlefield, before they were good enough to overcome all other weapons choices (a major factor was indeed their slow reload, which lasted until the mid-1800's). It is very easy to create guns that are so good that everyone packs them, in which case, you've gone from standard D&D-style medieval fantasy to some sort of Three Musketeers or American Old West world;which can be great fun - see Deadlands and 7th Sea - but is a very different flavor than typical D&D or its cousins. In my case, corrinavatan's reaction is just what I was looking to evoke: guns are very useful, but for a master archer (which includes even a low-level Ranger), they have too many limitations compared to bows/crossbows (historically, this is not unlike the English and their sticking to longbows for a few generations longer than anyone else; they had a good weapon, and good men to use them, so why rush to change?).

    corrinavatan is quite correct about the three errors to make when putting guns in D&D; my guns are a labor of love and an experiment. There's a bunch of little factors I was considering when I built them. I had thought of going the Gamma World route - where a gun is simply an encounter-power item - and it would be much easier to just pick up and add to any campaign. For most folks, it would probably work just as well to do that, or to use existing alchemy rules to simulate guns.

    Probably the easiest trap in using guns is to keep them from getting too good: as soon as you allow easy reload, or a wide variety of ammunition, with anything like an approriate damage expression, they become overpowered against any sword or bow, and -boom- you've gone from medieval fantasy to modern (even if early-modern). And for many audiences/players, a gun is a gun and they're going to expect to be able to use all the gun shticks they see on the screen. You'll need to be pretty clear about what kind of guns exist in the world and stick to that definition against all assumptions, desires, and arguments from your players. Not that it's all that hard, but nail it down in your own mind before you start play.
  • libranchylde
    libranchylde
    Posts: 113
    wow. Thanks guys. Tim, I really like your approach and may model my gun rules after yours. thanks. Corrin you make a couple good points, but what I was thinking was exactly what Tim said, in that they are a brand new invention and have bugs that slow them down or lower their efficiency. thus making them different from, but comparable to crossbows.
  • Fivegears
    Fivegears
    Posts: 42
    Gamma World has an interesting take on guns, it's a great deal more abstract than a lot of systems. Typically guns do more damage and are more accurate than their non-firearm counterpart, but, if you fire more than once per encounter, you expend all your ammo - so, you can carefully conserve your ammo by taking one planned shot, or just go nuts firing that fight.

    This works well in Gamma World, with the post-apoc setting, though - it may not work well in a fantasy setting.
  • Biotic_Bear
    Biotic_Bear
    Posts: 1
    I have included guns in my games because a large part of my world is sea fairing pirates. Same as other DMs I've made them have the same stats as a bow with reloading as a free action. I think it's important to discuss it with your players and see what they think as well.
  • Dranis230
    Posts: 9
    The way I plan on including guns is to make use the crossbows, make them a magic weapon, and then flavor them as firearms, or like simply flavoring a regular crossbow as an old/cheap civilian firearm, i think the guys above may have better ideas, but if you want guns for purely flavor purposes then i suggest doing something similar to what i would do, unless im wrong, in that case dont.
  • dlaporte7271
    dlaporte7271
    Posts: 94
    I'm not using hand held firearms. I've never like the idea in a fantasy campaign...but...I am now running a campaign with flying ships armed with cannons. I haven't worked out the mechanism for firing in detail yet, but I am leaning towards an explosive plant that gets shoved down the barrel ahead of the ammo, rather than gunpowder. In any case, I love ship to ship battles and even without detailing the mechanics I think it provides a cool backdrop for the players.

    dlaporte7271
    "violent skies":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/violent-skies
  • vstraydogstrutv
    vstraydogstrutv
    Posts: 209
    In the 3.5e DMG they actually make reference to using futuristic weapons on pages 145-146. Table 5-4 introduces renaissance weapons. Tim's stats look very similar to the ones found in the DMG.

    As for you, dlaporte, I've done wonders with alchemist's fire to keep from having to use gunpowder itself. For instance, a large flask (more like a large jar) filled with alchemist's fire is packed into the cannon first, then wadding, then the cannon ball. Instead of lighting a wick to ignite the powder, a pike is hammered through a hole in the cannon breaking the jar and exposing the AF to air, causing it to combust. This in turn creates the pressure needed to expel the projectile. That should be all the explanation needed ^.^
  • Dranis230
    Posts: 9
    ^ thats interesting thats similar to how i plan on guns firing in my campaign, although it was also able to add enchantments to bullets so, for example, they would explode in ice and things like that.
  • yanko128
    yanko128
    Posts: 8
    I have been using firearms in my 4e game for a while, and they have been working out really well. Below is the link to my firearm rules.

    http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/drashlan/wikis/firearms
  • DreadGazebo
    DreadGazebo
    Posts: 218
    There was recently a DDI article published by Dave Chalker as a nod to the Barrier Peaks, the article has a pretty wide range of firearms. Perhaps a bit more advanced than you're looking for but I'm sure it might be a good place to start hacking things apart at ;)
  • Scortcherman
    Posts: 2
    You should make them more bad then good (at first level)
    imagine you are 6 years old and you see a revolver in the street. you pick it up and because its so heavy it aims downward and you blow your foot off!
    therefore you should make it at least a 14 or above to hit on the d20 (with the easiest of weapons)
    and you should only make it 4-8 possible hp damage for a pistol (lets say) therefore the only advantage of using a firearm is that it will hit a high amount if you even hit!
    (sorry if im confusing)
    then by 6th level it will be easy, and those guns will come in handy because you can hit high damage as apposed to a bow that can sometimes only do a 2 :P
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