Comments

• 

  gnunn

  Posts: 423 February 2011

  Okay, first off, perhaps it would be helpful to know some things:
  
  # What system are you playing in?
  # What classes/races are present in your party?
  # What level are your players?
  # What happened to make them overpowered? Did you give out too much high-powered loot? Are they super-experienced min-maxers or is it based purely on extremely clever tactics?
  
  Unfortunately, I can only speak to my own 3.5 campaign world unless I know more.
  
  Off the top of my head, here are some suggestions:
  * If the problem is min/maxing, put them up against a group of NPCs that have nearly the same stats and gear that they do, except that the NPCs are good. Then, if they defeat them, have some of the NPC's gear get destroyed in the fight so the players can't just take it over to add to their arsenal.
  * If they have gear that is too powerful, put them up against creatures or encounters that negate that power (anti-magic fields, creatures that permanently drain the magic essence from items.)
  * Have the Gods themselves begin to view the group as a potential threat and change the laws of physics to hinder their meteoric rise to power. (e.g. The god of magic makes it so that too many magic auras in close proximity causes them to degrade or overload, or some of them to randomly become inoperative until the numbers are reduced.
  * If they are just playing really well, then that is not necessarily a bad thing.
  
  Remember, just because it is in a book, doesn't mean that is how things have to work in your game. Get creative.
• oldmanofdoom

  Posts: 12 February 2011

  We play 4E. My players are: dragonborn warlord, half-orc monk (lich and the most overpowered one), minotaur barbarian, half-elf warlock and kalashtar ardent (vampire). They are currently level 18. I did't give them anything too powerful, I decided to stick to the treasure parcels present in the book. The only thing that I gave them that I believe is overpowered is a +3 axe (don't remember the type of axe) that can't score a critical miss. But that's not the problem. You see, the PC who plays the half-orc monk is really good at making characters and loves dealing tons of damage, so he always picks the feats and powers that allow him to deals several dice worth of damage with a lot of bonuses, but he is practically a solo. If he were to betray the rest of the party, he would undoubtedly win. And thanks to the dragonborn warlord he gets two attacks per round! The second most overpowered character is the ardent, who also has a lot of luck and repeatedly scores critical hits. Fortunately, so do I, so that makes it a bit fairer (my record is 5 critical hits in a row, his is 3). The only good thing is that they aren't really that evil, they're really antiheroes in my opinion. They fight the bad guys because they want to be the best ones, kinda like "No More Heroes". Still, it's really hard to stop them from getting away with what they want, even if they did't even have a plan or did something completely reckless. Still, your suggestions all sound good and I appreciate the help. just thought I'd let you know just to see if you can think up anything else. Thanks for the advice!
• 

  gnunn

  Posts: 423 February 2011

  The only other thought I had after reading your description is send them against enemies with maces of disruption. (i.e. chance to completely obliterate the two undead PCs) Perhaps that is too mean though. Also, I think anti-magic fields might be a way to actually challenge them. They would render the Lich's spellcasting abilities useless, as well as any spell-like abilities... do they have anti-magic fields in 4E?
• oldmanofdoom

  Posts: 12 February 2011

  Not that I've seen, but I can always make them up. BTW, what are maces of disruption? Thanks again!
• 

  gnunn

  Posts: 423 February 2011

  Oh man, maces of disruption are one of the best weapons in D&D. Basically, in 3.5 edition, any undead struck by a disrupting weapon would have to make a will save or be utterly destroyed (i.e. no vampires going into gaseous form back to their coffins. completely. vaporized.) The will save target for the default version was only 14, but I don't see any reason why you couldn't jack that up to make sure it is a threat to your players. I played in a game last year where our group took out a Lich in 2-3 rounds. All it took was one poor save roll on his part.
• 

  Poutine_Paladin

  Posts: 285 February 2011

  Have them decide (all on their own.....wink, wink) that they want to own a seemingly deserted semi-ruined castle/keep in the middle of the woods that they come across, and let the residents actually be a secret clerical conference of some kind full of high-level-really-good-guys discussing something with their deity at the time of the takeover. You could make them crawl away into the bushes crying for their mothers....or decide to die instead, I guess.
  
  Wait...I don't know 4th Ed. But I'm sure you could make it work...you're in charge, right?
• 

  RaseCidraen

  Posts: 890 February 2011

  Paladin, that is gloriously... well, I'd say evil, but it's really _good_
• 

  GM_Dane

  Posts: 1 February 2011

  and from the left side of the field... make them reroll and star over. OP campaigns get very boring to me. the PCs are so uber, that they don't care anymore. they don't try to use their brains and fight with tactics because nothing can hurt them. it's more fun for the DM and more fun for the players (IMO) if there is some risk involved.
  
  just my two cents.
• 

  ChainsawXIV

  Posts: 530 February 2011 edited February 2011

  As an experienced 4th Edition player and DM who's used to gaming with a party of professional min-maxers, I can say with a fare degree of confidence that the difficulties represented in the standard system just don't work with outlier parties - if your players are too good at building characters, they can easily build a group that invalidates the standard difficulties. Try this:
  
  *Scale up your encounters.* Finding the right amount will take some experimentation, but add extra party members' worth of enemies to encounters. For my group, I routinely planned encounters as if the party were 7 or 8 people instead of 5.
  
  *Build synergy in your encounters.* Pick (or invent) monsters that work together in really powerful ways. This will force your players to focus on breaking up the enemy's strategy, and in turn break up their usual routine.
  
  *Don't let the players exploit your enemies.* If they're good at killing one thing at a time, swarm them. If they level everything with area effects, release the enemy in waves so they can't kill them all at once. Foil their plans.
  
  *Accept that they will roll some of your encounters easily*, and this makes them feel good, so it's fine. Don't make every encounter super hard for them, but try to insure that some encounters are challenging.
  
  *Improvise. Cheat.* Don't be afraid to change things up on the fly as you see an encounter taking shape. Bring in another wave of enemies, or 'reveal' a new and terrifying power (that you just made up) that's the boss's ace in the hole.
  
  *Make things more complicated.* Add environmental hazards, traps, or terrain that favors the enemy. The difficulty of an encounter comes as much from the setting as from the enemies, and this will make your players scramble.
  
  *Don't let them rest!* It can be hard to justify why they can't get a full night's sleep between every encounter, but it's key. Forcing them to conserve their dailies will significantly reduce their ability to overpower encounters.
  
  *Trick them.* Bate them into using their best powers on guys who only look tough, only to have the real villain emerge from the shadows. This will keep them second guessing their targets, and disrupt their strategies.

  Post edited by ChainsawXIV on February 2011
• 

  RaseCidraen

  Posts: 890 February 2011

  Chainsaw, absolutely brilliant!
• 

  Poutine_Paladin

  Posts: 285 February 2011

  Good list, my friend...comprehensive and functional.
  
  I especially like the "bait them" trick (though it sure pisses me off when I'm on the player side of it) as by the time you realize the trouble you've gotten yourself into, you're drained. (which also goes nicely with the "don't let them rest" idea)
  
  Also a big fan of terrain aiding the enemy...well, I like interesting surroundings to do battle in anyway so it's not always the same "out in the woods swinging sharp things at guys" anyway. I believe I recently mentioned in another thread how it's been a while since I was on a rickety bridge, either in-game, or in-life.
• 

  optimus_mush

  Posts: 28 February 2011

  My suggestion is steer them into new ground. If the party are used to just butchering everything is sight and then collecting the loot, change the field on them by lessening the importance of combat and raising the importance of good roleplaying.
  
  Perhaps the PCs need to barter a deal from the demon that they would normally just dispatch back to the abyss. If they don't use their diplomacy skills properly then the demon merely vanishes with a laugh, refusing to engage the party.
  
  Make them negotiate a peace treaty between two warring cities. It could give them an opportunity for some combat if either side steps out of line, but making them decide how to handle things at the peace table could be interesting.
  
  If you really want to throw them for a loop ensure that the adventure puts the characters at odds with one another. Find the strings that really pull at two or more of the characters and make sure that they run opposite of each other. A bit of tension in the party can go a long way towards writing adventures for you, especially when the PCs already have an evil bent to them.
  
  At the end of the day, however, if your PCs just enjoy smashing everything in sight then find a way for that to be part of your adventure. In gaming one must often pander a bit to your PCs. To simply take away their fun or arbitrarily dismantle their characters just gets them mad.
  
  Find ways to make them develop new strengths where their old tricks just don't work. If they absolutely refuse to play ball, well, do as my friend the Poutine Paladin says and send them up the river with a bunch of do-gooder clerics.
• 

  ChainsawXIV

  Posts: 530 February 2011 edited February 2011

  The key with baiting the players is the changes it inspires in their behavior in the longer run. They'll be fooled by it once or twice, and get to feel a bit dumb about it for better or worse. After that though, every time they go to use a power they'll stop and think, "Hmm... could he be baiting me? Should I hold this back for later?" and the net result is that they'll end up using their super powers at key moments, when the situation demands it, rather than at the drop of a hat. That makes for better drama, with the added benefit of fewer daily powers being thrown around over all.
  
  *Optimus_Mush's* comments are excellent as well, from the other angle. If all else fails, you can absolutely make the game less about combat. You just have to be careful not to go too far with it - your players probably _enjoyed_ making super powered characters, and will feel dissatisfied if they don't get to exercise all the cool abilities they worked to assemble.

  Post edited by ChainsawXIV on February 2011
• 

  Duskreign

  Posts: 1,085 February 2011

  I have had this happen in the past (and it is all-too-easy for it to happen in 4th edition, especially if you are playing with a bunch of powergamers. The game becomes more about the system of rules than the story and world you've surrounded them with. Control is lost, and your once busy hands go idle. That's a terrible place to be. So, I'll give you some advice from my own experience.
  
  If your characters outgrow their world, show them a bigger one.
  
  If this world you've built for them coddles them, even if that coddling is of the rules-sanctioned variety, you have to come to terms with the power you still have... it is still your world, and with the exception of the player characters, you control absolutely everyone, and everything, in it!
  
  In my world, the great equalizer is a form of mathematical magic called "Runometry.":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/wyrmshadow/wikis/the-arcane-science-of-runometry
  
  What will your great equalizer be? Chainsaw and Optimus gave you several beautiful suggestions, but in the end, the choice is yours. Just remember to embrace your power as the DM. Those rules your players micro-managed into putty in their hands? They are just the rules for them. You're the only one at that table with carte blanche to transcend beyond those rules, and show those characters a bigger world.
  
  
  "Duskreign":http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/Duskreign
  
  "Wyrmshadow Campaign Setting":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow
  
  "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic
  
  "The System":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/system
• 

  twiggyleaf

  Posts: 2,013 February 2011

  Oldmanofdoom
  
  I'm sure your problems are something that every DM has had to deal with. I think Chainsaw's advice is particularly good and Duskreign's "great equaliser" is another good option. My campaign has one of these in the form of "Primordial Power Effects" which affect characters but not enemies, due to a complicated planar effect. All of these help to "chip away".
  One specific monster that was recommended to me by another DM and which I have subsequently used to good effect is the "Rust Dragon". Do a google search and you will find some info but it is also in Draconomicon I believe. You will find a Mature Example at this excellent resource:
  "Example Dragons":http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Sample_Dragons
  
  twigs

  "I met a traveller from an antique land....."

  CotM May 2016: Mysteria: set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.

  Previous CotM Aug 2012: Shimring: High Level Multiplanar Campaign

  Inner Council Member
• 

  gaaran

  Posts: 740 February 2011

  I know almost everything has already been covered, but just follow one simple rule. You don't have to follow the rules. ESPECIALLY when it comes to planning encounters. If your players are awesome and have made the "challenging" encounters into "easy" encounters, then just make the encounters harder. For 4th edition this is easy, just include a couple more players worth of experience in the encounter planning. Piece of cake.
• 

  FemmeLegion

  Posts: 521 February 2011

  ...my first thought was "HOW THE HECK DID A PC GET THE LICH TEMPLATE?!?!?"
  
  My second thought was "When you apply the lich template to a monster, it gains Elite status, meaning it counts as two of itself. Consider that monk dude as two players when building encounters, fo' sho'".
  
  My third thought was "Turn the party into the bad guys. With a lich and a vampire, it should be really easy to start spreading rumors that the PCs have really been doing their heroism as a front for other horrible machinations. Let them notice that townfolk are starting to wear amulets against evil eye curses and looking at the PCs askance. That sort of thing".
• 

  igornappovich

  Posts: 76 February 2011

  There are a number of things you could do. One of my favorites for this : drop in an artifact of great power, that is useful to every character but can only be wielded by one at a time (preferably something large like a throne, a staff, a crown, a lantern, etc). Then, you just sit back and wait for them to kill each other for possession of the artifact.
  
  Natural disasters are another possibility. Forest fires, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados, lava flows, mudslides, flooding... HPs dont matter that much against these things, but decisions do.
  
  Or, curses can be fun. Just wait for the party to do something blasphemous-- burning down a temple, or slaying a priest or something-- and have the NPC lay down a curse as a dying declaration. Adjust stats or luck accordingly, until they can lift the curse. It could even be very specific- -if some overpowered feat or technique was used to kill the NPC, perhaps the curse manifests every time that FEAT or power is used. Random disease, stat drops a point, to hit lowered, hair falls out, etc there are curse resources online if you need some fun ideas.