Micro-leveling

Duskreign
Duskreign
edited October 2010 in General Discussion
h2. Micro-leveling

h4. A more organic, gradual experience system

I have always felt that the traditional experience/leveling systems in place were a bit odd. A character will fight, bleed, retreat, lick their wounds, plan, love, laugh, and do all the many lovely things an adventurer is wont to do, but it is only after they have achieved some seemingly arbitrary goal that they see any kind of benefit from their toils and troubles. In fact, this goal isn

Comments

  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085 edited October 2010
    *1. Experience*

    There are two main types of experience in Wyrmshadow: Violent and Non-violent. I prefer to reward creative roleplaying that takes into account a character
    Post edited by Duskreign on
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085 edited October 2010
    *2. Leveling*

    In Wyrmshadow, I have foregone levels in favor of a more gradual improvement system based upon the idea that as a character endures hardships, they should not have to wait for an arbitrary moment in the near-future to reap the benefits of character growth.

    Imagine yourself seated at the table in the Heroe
    Post edited by Duskreign on
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085 edited October 2010
    You opt to take my offer, and you now have two blue crystals with which to make improvements to your character. I ask only that you make improvements that are in keeping with the following criteria:

    1
    Post edited by Duskreign on
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085 edited October 2010
    *Two Blue Crystals:*

    +1 Encounter Power
    Post edited by Duskreign on
  • JimTriche
    JimTriche
    Posts: 483
    Actually it's fairly easy to understand and quite good. Now I want to steal and tweak it for shadowrun.
  • RaseCidraen
    RaseCidraen
    Posts: 890
    This is incredibly excellent, Dusk! I'm quite taken by how organic it feels. I salute the approach you've taken to this. Now I just need to find some way of implementing it!
  • FrankSirmarco
    FrankSirmarco
    Posts: 250
    Your system is definitely more organic than the standard leveling systems I'm used to.

    I have a few questions:

    1. Do your players prefer your system to the standard leveling system?
    2. How often do you find yourself denying a player's proposed used of their level-up(s)?
    3. As the Omnipotent being in Wormshadow, do you find yourself taking in to account future encounters or plot points when you allow or disallow a specific level-up?

    Well done, by the way. You did a nice job of presenting the information in an easy-to-understand manner.
  • JonathonVolkmer
    JonathonVolkmer
    Posts: 114
    I like it Duskreign - it does lend a much more organic feel to 4E, which I think is something that's always been lacking in D&D in general. Of course, that can vary with play style and your GM (I have known some GMs who imposed roleplaying requirements to justify level increases). This is another great bit of thinking for me to add to my bookmarks arcanum, so thanks!

    On a side note, I wonder if you've considered play with any other rules sets out there? This kind of organic leveling is part of what attracted me to Savage Worlds (my usual system), and is also very similar to how things are done in World of Darkness (the system I'm currently running for "The Blood of Life":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/the-blood-of-life). I know there are a number of other systems out there that employ similar methods as well.

    Of course, I also know that it's often easier for players to learn a few house rules than to introduce them to an entirely new system - just curious where your inspiration came from.
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085 edited October 2010
    *Jim,*

    You can't steal what I gift unto thee, gratis!


    *Rase,*

    Thanks! If you need help monkeying, gibboning, or chimpanzeeing around with it, let me know.



    *Frank,*

    1. Thus far, I have only received compliments. Incremental increases every session make the players feel like they are accomplishing something on a regular basis, and if they prefer the old one-lump-sum leveling, they can simply save up a bunch of blues and go to town every 4 or 5 sessions, which is how often they previously tended to level.

    2. I have only ever suggested slight modifications to a power, and not often. I've never had to outright deny someone. For example, SirDrogyn's character, Khulvos, is a Weren Runefist (like a combination of a runepriest and a monk).. He has the ability to tap into an inner consciousness called the Inner Sanctum (in fact, as I write my adventure logs in his voice, you see the Inner Sanctum quite often). From the Inner Sanctum, he can visit people's pasts and guide them through regrets to help them overcome mental roadblocks that prevent physical and spiritual growth. He wanted to use this ability in-combat to give him temporary control of a number of local enemy minions. His idea was for him to have a standard action in which he sat down to meditate, the runes on his body glow, brilliant circles of energy emanate from his chakra (seven points from the top of the head to the groin, through which chi is transferred most freely throughout the body and its environment), and any minor enemies in the room suddenly drop what they are doing and start making melee basic attacks against a standard or elite enemy of his choosing. I simply added that it was a self-burst 3, rather than "every minor enemy in the room", that the effect only lasts until the end of the controlled enemy's next turn, and that he begins the next round prone and must expend a move action to stand up. He thought that was reasonable, and he has used that ability to great effect several times since he chose it.

    3. Absofreakinglutely!

    Thanks, Frankie! I didn't think it would be easy to understand at all.


    *Jon,*

    I've never even given other systems a thought. It's kind of like people's obsession with Apple. If it's not an iPod, then they don't want it. When people think of mp3 players, they think iPod. When my players think of Arpee Gees, they think D&D (except the smart ones who are playing in my D6 System Star Wars game :P ) So, I use as much as I can from D&D, and I house rule the bejesus out of it.

    And yeah, I find that it is more palatable to those at the table to adopt a few house modifications to the system they know than to try to force them to learn an entirely new set of rules.

    If it turns out that my xp/leveling system is like something else that predates it, it is coincidental (and upsetting). I was kind of proud of it. If I turn out to be less clever than I thought... whatever is a Duskreign to do? BAW!!!
    Post edited by Duskreign on
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085
    "Just me, plugging my Rules page.":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow/wiki_pages/rules
  • arsheesh
    arsheesh
    Posts: 850
    Well this is quite an interesting system you've devised Dusk. I am intrigued enough to want to try it out myself, though I'd have to modify it since I'm playing with 3.5e/Pathfinder rules rather than 4e. I think I'll let my Darkmoon Vale players know about it and see what they think. If they want to try it (or something like it) out great. If not, perhaps I'll incorporate these rules into the next campaign I run (whenever that will be!). Either way, I'm impressed with your idea. Good work.

    Cheers,
    -Arsheesh
  • JonathonVolkmer
    JonathonVolkmer
    Posts: 114
    Would it cheer you up if I said that your system is only similar to others I have seen in that it is modular/organic, classless (in the best possible way), and allows characters to grow more naturally than rigid class leveling systems?

    Your specific means of achieving this goal is absolutely distinct from both SW and WoD, and the fact that you developed it independently is all the more impressive.
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085
    Daw jeez, Jon, yer embarrassin' me! Also, the classless thing was actually my primary goal in developing this system. Nobody in my game is a Paladin. Drogyn is a Diocene Knight. Borgamat is a Peacebringer. It seems like semantics, but the players appreciate the idea that they aren't just another (Blank) but an individual wholly unique from all others. For unity, there are guilds and orders. For classes, there are only individual people.

    Arsheesh, it wouldn't take that much to tweak this for 3rd Edition. I like it with 4th because I like the modular aspects of that game. I discarded what I didn't like and created something that seemed to better represent a person's growth and maturity.
  • DarkMagus
    DarkMagus
    Posts: 425
    Reminds me a bit of karma in Shadowrun (in the player choice aspect), but its obviously very different too. I'm going to keep this in mind and if I play a short term game in the future I may play-test this to see what I think about it. I've never done anything in D&D other than standard levels before (though to be COMPLETELY honest its not too standard because I haven't counted XP in a loooong time. I just arbitrarily decide on when the players level up-- though I think it comes off as less than arbitrary because I do put a bit of thought into it. My most recent game The Ilumnos Series is by far the most lazy of all and I just give a level after each color level except for grey, so that each chapter is a new setting and a new story and they have new abilities. Keeps things fresh.)

    I cant believe I just typed more in the parentheses than out. I should be banned from using them until I can do so more responsibly...
  • Alatheon
    Alatheon
    Posts: 35
    Dusk, have you ever run into issues with players having consistently really bad (or really good) luck that leads to a power imbalance in the party?
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085 edited October 2010
    Alatheon, I have noticed that every session sees one person shining above the rest, then the next week, it's someone else who gets the spotlight. If they roll consistently well, they do well. That's an issue inherent to any system based on random number generation, but it has never been a problem.

    I have one player who gripes if he rolls poorly (to a distracting degree), and gloats overmuch when he's rolling well. He also tends to be the guy who complains most when he doesn't pick a blue crystal, and cries out victoriously (much to the rest of our chagrin) whenever he gets one. That is a personality conflict, which is a sociological matter, not a systemic one. Everyone else enjoys the system tremendously.

    If this game were, as that one player seems to act, competitive rather than cooperative, then I think that could very well be an issue. If someone runs a game with a bunch of hyper-competitive poor-sports, then I think that GM should examine the company he or she keeps, not the way he or she tabulates dice rolls and settles experience/leveling. Sometimes it's not the game, but the players, that are to blame.
    Post edited by Duskreign on
  • RaseCidraen
    RaseCidraen
    Posts: 890
    ...I am thinking a group of hyper-competitive good-sports would make for an interesting group. Of course, my problem is that I inherently don't like competition (I'm a big fan of everyone getting along - it makes life easier for me).
  • Duskreign
    Duskreign
    Posts: 1,085
    Well, competitiveness in and of itself is not a bad thing. It makes no sense in my game, though. If you need to be put yourself above the others in your group, then you'll quickly find that the others aren't there when you find yourself needing them.

    I'm pretty fair to my players. I tell them from the get-go that they are a team, and they live or die as such. The cream rises to the top, obviously, so leadership qualities usually manifest in one or two characters, and that can often cause a bit of a rivalry. I'm cool with that, so long as it remains a friendly one. The moment it seems like a personality is wrenching everyone else from the experience, I have to step in and fix the problem. In that case, it's not my rules that are to blame, but the impetuous player.
  • RaseCidraen
    RaseCidraen
    Posts: 890
    Players are the big trouble... especially when they start complaining about them being underpowered vs. another character being overpowered. Case and point: Player A (me), has a D20 class which uses assault rifles, a Soldier, if you will. He does X damage when he hits. Player B, playing a scientist, whose class gives him other advantages, also wants to do X damage, but he has a fetish for dual-wielding pistols without the requisite skill to make that remotely viable. He does significantly less than X damage. Then he begins complaining that I'm overpowered compared to him. Which doesn't sit right with me, because if you're able to be as effective as a soldier, and also have the advantages associated with being a scientist, doesn't make the Soldier irrelevant?
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