The Wiki Edit Page Hangup Issue (And Rant About How OP Is Handling It)

Tau_Cetacean
Tau_Cetacean
edited February 2016 in Bug Reports
!http://help.obsidianportal.com/discussions/problems/19669/assets/ec5157bb2e0ab2b75649f8e743db83df1de2cc95/thumb/FTO.png!

this is what the wiki edit window looks like whenever I try to edit wiki pages on my flagship campaign... most of the time it fully opens after a minute or so (but not consistently)

it doesn't happen with any of my other campaigns

they keep telling me maybe I did something screwy with the CSS... and I keep telling them I did nothing to customize the campaign slot (besides uploading a background image... now switched out for one of their defaults)

if someone can tell me how you even begin to edit the CSS, what the default settings are, how to double check that I have them at the defaults, or if there is a one click way to restore defaults, I would love to hear it... because OP is now not responding on my bug report thread (the one they insisted I open up and keep private because it's "just your account")

they keep suggesting maybe it's embedded images... except I embedded images in my other campaigns, the ones that are not having this problem

is the only thing I'm doing... and it's linking to images I've posted to my own livejournal account's scrapbook

they also suggest it could be do to my tables... except I have similiar tables in all of my other campaigns

and this hangup problem manifests itself in every page, regardless of whether or not it has tables or images

they suggested I open a new campaign... I did... they said can you make it without hyphens (OP automatically makes the spaces between words into hyphens, and my other campaigns have more that one word and ergo hyphens in the URL, and they are not having this problem), so I made another new campaign, with a single-word title (Hypatia, as in the librarian of Alexandria... as in this is the wikipedia of my future setting)

I asked if they could just transfer my pages from old campaign (nanopunk) to new campaign (hypatia)... because I pointed out I have literally thousands of pages

they said no they can't do that

I asked why not, why is it not just a simple matter of moving files from one directory to another

they have not answered

for days

from Aaron's last post to the bug thread:

"The other option that becomes available to us is stripping nanopunk down to text and then adding back tables , then images and seeing whats casing the breaks. We can also have another user look over a few examples of your CSS/tables for anything that may be driving the site down(seems highly unlikely but I'd like to explore all options)"

a) those tables are the core of what I'm doing... a page for every month, year, decade, century, millenia, in my timeline... stripping the text out the tables destroys the work I've been doing for YEARS
b) copying thousands of pages manually from one campaign to a new campaign, to MAYBE get around a bug that is almost certainly their fault... and me still paying them for the privilege.. is galling
c) if this is what it's come down to, it seems like it's easier just to quit OP and demand a refund

d) I have no idea why it would be "other players" job to look at my CSS (which I haven't changed) or my tables... but... whatever... I will post my templates here... since clearly they are ignoring this ticket, it's not like I have any other recourse
e) again, even if there is malformed code in how I made my tables, I don't get why it would effect the loading of pages in the same campaign that don't have the tables

Comments

  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285 edited February 2016
    example of a month page template:








    Preceded by:
    Part of:
    Followed by:


    [[January 2026]]
    [[2026]]
    [[March 2026]]





    Day

    Events







    1

    {{text}}







    2

    {{text}}







    3

    {{text}}







    4

    {{text}}







    5

    {{text}}







    6

    {{text}}







    7

    {{text}}







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    other / tbd

    [[2026 Winter Olympics]]







    notes

    {{text}}
    Post edited by Tau_Cetacean on
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285 edited February 2016
    okay, well this one thing, maybe related to the problem? maybe not?

    but it should be 2026 in double square brackets, it shows up that way when I go into edit it, either in my wiki or when I edit the forum post above... don't know why it displays as [$this->footnoteID(’\1’,’\2’)]
    Post edited by Tau_Cetacean on
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    in wiki it appears and function as a link to my 2026 year page

    copying and pasting to MS word and the html looks the same

    deleting and retyping that part of the html and retrying to post here, still has the weird miscopy

    and again, the hangup error occurs when trying to edit *any* page in the wiki, regardless of whether it has any table or not (e.g. I could try to edit page on 2026 Winter Olympics and the hangup error would still happen... and the only thing on the page are two tags: Olympics, 2026, and placeholder text:

    Held in [[February 2026]] in {{city tbd}}
  • ChainsawXIV
    ChainsawXIV
    Posts: 529
    This kind of problem is especially hard to debug, and it sounds like they're going systematically through all the things it could be that they actually control. My guess, though, based on the specific things they're asking about at this point, is that the problem would be that the problem is something more specific to you as a user in this case, than to your wiki or the site itself. If you'll bear with me, I'd like to try and figure this (both because I like to help, and because I'm curious now and have a theory or two). A few questions:

    * How consistently does this issue occur for you when you're editing pages?
    ** Does this occur on every page of the wiki, only one specific page, or on a few?
    ** Does this occur every time you edit the page(s) in question, or intermittently?
    * Does this issue occur when editing the page(s) on a different setup?
    ** Have you tried editing from a different computer and had different results?
    ** Have you tried editing using a different web browser and had different results?
    ** Have any other users experienced the problem editing the same page(s)?
    ** Have you tried editing when on a different internet connection than normal?

    If you'd like to invite me to the campaign temporarily, and link me to the problem page(s), I can check against the second set of questions myself, at least, and that will help eliminate or validate a couple of possibilities. And if I can get the problem to happen for me, I should be able to provide much more specific technical information that may help resolve the problem. I'd love to 'teach a man to fish' on this one, but that's easier said than done with this sort of issue.
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    * it happens pretty consistently when I am editing wiki pages, but only for this campaign, not my 10+ other campaigns... my work flow is a little bit methodical and a little bit erratic... I try to keep the current month (in this case February 2016 up-to-date with current events, and every day I create a word file from wikipedia's page for that day in history, and sometimes I get the time to backfill the Nanopunk wiki, and sometimes I also have the bandwith to fill in events in the past or future, or create other pages in the wiki... so I am confident it's not a specific page, or a specific element (even though I most often work with the timeline pages that have that table), but any page

    * if I have recently edited a page (< 30 minutes) it seems like it will load normally

    * before the server upgrades, the edit page would almost never fully open (so, now the server upgrade is a blessing and curse to me - no more 502 errors, but now there's the dilemma of do I manually open a wiki edit window or do I wait a minute for the wiki edit page window to maybe fully open or maybe not... and if it burps and fully opens after I've manually opened it, I can lose my spot in the editing)

    * have done it from many different computers, from different locations and ergo different internet connections

    * I've probably done it from different browsers... but... hold on... let me open up Internet Exploder right now (normally use Mozilla Firefox)... yep, definitely have the same problem on multiple browsers

    * at least one other user mentioned having the same problem on a forum thread somewhere, but seems like I have it more consistently (or I am just the only one totally fed up with it)

    * I will send you an invite to the campaign now... have at it and thanks!

    * no worries about not teaching me to fish... I've been meaning to learn more coding, and I was gonna start off easy, like "code a parser for the one huge xml file that OP gives me as a backup".... but *somebody* went ahead and did that already :-)

    * aside: racking my brain, and I remembered there are a few pages where I have tables copied from either my old livejournal page (the problem I had there was that you could only pre-date stuff back to 1970 and post-date stuff up to 2037, because old UNIX clock, which that and the fact it all had to be chronology and no people / places pages, is what drove me to OP and a wiki-type setup) or from wikipedia in the GM only sections... I am going to clean that up and remove those tables
  • ChainsawXIV
    ChainsawXIV
    Posts: 529
    Consistency is fantastic for figuring out stuff like this (as much as it sucks for you at the moment). The worst is trying to reproduce an issue that happens one time in a thousand. I'll poke at this tonight and see if I can work out what's going on.
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    Thanks!
  • ChainsawXIV
    ChainsawXIV
    Posts: 529
    After a little digging, here's the skinny as near as I can tell.

    When you go to edit a wiki page, the script that handles the buttons on the right for making links and inserting images and things calls up the server and asks for a file called content_summary.json. This file is basically a table of contents for your entire campaign, which is referenced when you search through pages to link to. For most campaigns, this is no problem. For example, this is the "content_summary.json":https://sotfa.obsidianportal.com/content_summary.json file for the 300-ish pages of "Sins of the First Age":https://sotfa.obsidianportal.com/. It weighs in at about 2,000 lines of text when properly formatted, or right around 50k of data.

    For your campaign however, the "summary file":https://nanopunk.obsidianportal.com/content_summary.json fails to load most of the time, generating a "504 error":http://www.checkupdown.com/status/E504.html in your browser's error log - a standard error message which means, in layman's terms, that the server asked another server for something, waited a while, but nothing happened. Most likely this is because the server script that's meant to create this file for you either took so long to do it that it decided something must be broken and gave up (it timed out), or else the script outright crashed itself in the process of trying to put it together for you.

    !http://omnichron.net/external/images/Content_Summary_504.png!

    When this file fails to load, the parts of the javascript that are waiting for it never fire off, and stuff stops working. This is why you don't see the editing bar at the top of the text area, and why its size isn't set properly. Those steps are forever waiting on this file to arrive.

    The underlying issue almost certainly results from the combination of the server setup and the huge number of pages in your wiki. Obviously, you should be able to have as many pages as your wiki requires though, so it's the server that needs attention (along with some javascript changes to make the page handle failure more gracefully).

    Given this information, it's likely that the OP tech team will be able to quickly isolate and (hopefully, at least) resolve the issue. It would have been unusually difficult for them to diagnose without this information however, since the file in question is being asked for asynchronously, and the page seems to load just fine for most purposes.

    I'll mention this to Andrew when we talk - I know he'll be happy to have a clear insight in to what's going wrong here. You should also update your ticket with a link to this post, for their ease of reference though.
  • ChainsawXIV
    ChainsawXIV
    Posts: 529 edited February 2016
    In the mean time, if you open your browser's error console (Ctrl+Shift+K in "FireFox":https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Web_Console/Opening_the_Web_Console, or simply F12 in Chrome), you can watch for the error message shown above. When either the error appears or things do their re-sizing (indicated you got lucky and it loaded), it's safe to assume that you can edit without it showing up and jerking your around later. Not fast at all, but better than nothing.
    Post edited by ChainsawXIV on
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    thanks!!!!

    cross-posting to the bug report
  • Basileus
    Basileus
    Posts: 589
    You're a mensch, Chainsaw. We ever meet, I'm going to buy you a beer.
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    agreed, I'm buying the first keg
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    !http://help.obsidianportal.com/discussions/problems/19669/assets/afcf771bf568528a9d762cb68d9535501e84b80d/thumb/first_bug.jpg!

    OP has known about this issue since at least July of 2014 and not been able to diagnose what Chainsaw did in a few hours
  • andreww38
    andreww38
    Posts: 239 edited February 2016
    "OP has known about this issue since at least July of 2014 and not been able to diagnose what Chainsaw did in a few hours"

    To clarify a couple of points:
    1) OP was under different management then, I would have tried to do something about it then, if I had been involved, so I can only take responsibility for stuff when I started actively managing the site (circa Dec 21).

    2) We are aware of your issue. The tech team is addressing the broader kickstarter issues dating back to 2013, so we will get a fix for your issue as soon as we have some breathing space.

    3) Chainsaw is brilliant. I go to Chainsaw for advice too. It's good to follow what Chainsaw says and suggests. Be like Chainsaw.

    4) We have your issue in our queue. I would fix it for you if I could, right now, if I could. But I'm not able to, so the tech guys will be working on it in due course.

    5) Chainsaw is brilliant, see #3.
    Post edited by andreww38 on
  • GamingMegaverse
    GamingMegaverse
    Posts: 2,876
    Chainsaw is brilliant.

    Just trying to help out.  Changed name from killervp to Gaming Megaverse to match other sites.

  • twiggyleaf
    twiggyleaf
    Posts: 1,728
    I definitely have to agree with Points 3 and 5 above.

    twigs

    "I met a traveller from an antique land....."

    CotM May 2016: Mysteria: set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.

    Previous CotM Aug 2012: Shimring: High Level Multiplanar Campaign

    Inner Council Member

  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    okay, but since Dec 21st or so, OP has:

    1) insisted I create a private bug report
    2) suggested the problem is because of stuff I did (my html tables, embedding images, etc.)
    3) told me the only solution is to move everything over to a new campaign, and that it would be best to strip everything out of those tables and take out the embedded images... e.g. undo literally years or work
    4) told me that they could not automate the move of wiki pages from old campaign to new campaign, I would have to manually move thousands of wiki pages
    5) not responded to the private bug report at all since I copied and pasted Chainsaw's diagnosis there
    6) only responded when I create a negative PR problem in the forums

    if I had meekly accepted Aaaron's instructions for next step forward, I would have been looking at throwing away years of work, a Herculean task of copying, pasting, editing, copying and pasting thousands of wiki pages from one campaign to another, and having the new pages be an inferior version (imagine a day-by-day chronology in a table, versus not in a table, with a few images to break up the text, and without anything but text)... and... at the end of all that... the same bug would probably have happened (if I understand Chainsaw's diagnosis, the issue is the server-side code not being able to handle the number of pages I have in my wiki and it breaking the summary file)

    I don't mind being in a queue, and I definitely see forward progress under the new regime, so yeah, the queue looks like it's moving forward, and I've lived with the bug for a year and a half now, I can live with it for a little while longer

    what I mind is that your process would have had me drop a thermonuclear bomb on the village in order to save it, and even after Chainsaw did your jobs for you and opened up a non-nuclear option... the only way for me to get acknowledgement that the non-nuclear option is even on the radar is to be a bit of jerk on the public forum
  • ChainsawXIV
    ChainsawXIV
    Posts: 529
    In OP's defense, the reason I was able to diagnose this as quickly as I did is because I'm a technical expert (which, let me tell you, feels really strange to say about myself). I could probably construct some elaborate analogy about service managers vs factory engineers, but suffice to say, it's a skill set that I would expect from a programmer, not a community manager, and I don't think it's fair to blame Aaron for not knowing how to solve this.

    Responsiveness aside, the main _technical_ thing that could have been done better in my opinion is to elevate it to the tech team more promptly. Instead though, he tried to help you solve the problem on your own. In this case that wasn't the right move, but to be fair, most problems aren't issues with the server tech. I can't call it an unreasonable one.

    In that light, I'd say the key lessons I hope are learned here are:

    +For The Site+
    * Elevate technical issues to the tech team before requesting radical action on the part of the user.
    * Try to improve follow-up on active tickets to make sure users know their issues are being addressed.

    +For Users+
    * Try to have a little faith that things are being taken care of... you know, now that they actually _are_.
  • andreww38
    andreww38
    Posts: 239 edited February 2016
    @Tau -

    We def want to help you resolve this.

    Here's my point of view:

    I spoke to Aaron about this.
    We tried to replicate the issue with other campaigns but were unable to.
    So our diagnosis was that there is a permutation of campaign-specific assets or the set up which has results in the issue.

    Note that we're not fingerpointing or scapegoating you in any way, we want to help resolve the issues you (and every other user facing similar issues are facing).

    1) insisted I create a private bug report

    >>>> This was done so that Aaron could interact with you directly and data about your issue could be communicated, passed back and forth more easily. In addition, I also asked Aaron to contact you to do a screenshare via skype, so that the issue could be replicated, diagnosed and packaged into a tech ticket so that our coders could work on a fix.

    2) suggested the problem is because of stuff I did (my html tables, embedding images, etc.)

    >>>> This is one of the reason why I asked Aaron to try to do a screen share session, so we could see what's happening on your screen.

    3) told me the only solution is to move everything over to a new campaign, and that it would be best to strip everything out of those tables and take out the embedded images… e.g. undo literally years or work

    >>>> We were trying to isolate the cause of the issue you were facing with this. If there're hundreds, if not thousands of hours, involved in this process, then we would have asked you to move over a few pages, and if the issue doesn't recur, then isolate the cause of the issues you're facing.

    4) told me that they could not automate the move of wiki pages from old campaign to new campaign, I would have to manually move thousands of wiki pages

    >>>> There's not facility to automate moving of wiki pages. In fact, there's little automation available on the site now. Any processes we want to automate would need to be speced out in detail, then handed off to the tech team which would take a few days to develop the automation, test it across various scenarios and check that it's moved/replicated correctly.

    5) not responded to the private bug report at all since I copied and pasted Chainsaw’s diagnosis there

    >>>> We are aware of the issue, perhaps Aaron could have posted an update that we are working on the issue. It's an oversight on our part.

    6) only responded when I create a negative PR problem in the forums

    >>>> To be honest, I have a limited amount of resources, so there are choices every day where to allocate them. There are hundreds of "negative PR problems", rants, criticisms, flames across the forums. Being able to priortize them and get sh*t done is something the team (Aaron, coders, Inner council) and I work on every day. We address issues which affect basic site functionality and which hit the greatest number of users first, so we will get to your issue and get it fixes, we want to site working seamlessly for everyone, whether Ascendant or free user, GM or player.

    Just like we wouldn't want to have to deal with any issues or "negative PR issues" on any site we use, neither would we wish it on any OP user.

    We are on the same page that we want to get sh*t done, and if this was an issue that existed in code I wrote then I'd gladly submit to the Ned Stark-King of the Hand treatment.

    The reality is that we have a mountain of issues to wade through, and we have made pretty decent process in the last 6 weeks, and we intend to keep grinding through the issues.

    I apologize if we can't get to your problem now (or to the other 99 issues that other users are facing), we'll getting the biggest ones out of the way first, then dividing and conquering the other issues.

    So we are listening, and Aaron has to look at a list of 300-400+ customer support tickets each day. Within his shift he can respond to 30-50 of them on a good day, and it is a constant battle to deal with issues in the bug/feature queue, oversee development/testing, then push them onto the live site once we've sure that they have a decent chance of working.

    In the meantime, we deal with 'negative PR issues' as best we can, and we freaking love RPGs and tabletop gaming, else I think the chorus of negative PR issues would've scared us away some time ago.

    As always, I welcome all feedback, including criticism, feedback, flames. My bottomline is creating a quality user experience for all OP users, maybe not tomorrow, or the week after, but if you stay with the fellowship for a while, you'll get to see where we're headed.
    Post edited by andreww38 on
  • twiggyleaf
    twiggyleaf
    Posts: 1,728
    If you welcome flames, you'll love listening to my Balrog's complaints!

    (Not trying to belittle Tau's issue - but sometimes a funny side DOES show up in these long threads)

    I hope Tau gets his issue sorted out in time, and Tau, when you do, be sure to tell us all about it.

    twigs

    "I met a traveller from an antique land....."

    CotM May 2016: Mysteria: set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.

    Previous CotM Aug 2012: Shimring: High Level Multiplanar Campaign

    Inner Council Member

  • andreww38
    andreww38
    Posts: 239
    Balrog?

    "You cannot pass! I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow. You shall not pass!"
  • Maesenko
    Maesenko
    Posts: 325
    Going back a few posts, Chainsaw is Brilliant.

    As in "+5 Energy Weapon enhancement" Brilliant.

    Or as those into LEGO know, OTC FTW! (Orange Transparent Chainsaw)

    ~Mae

    CotM Selection Committee

  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    @ Mae - into LEGO? whatever do you mean?

    !https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1657/24753563872_47decc9386_k.jpg!
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    !http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/lego/images/7/72/13920173430_b93a5ce72f_z.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140512002220!

    at a friend's suggestion, named the minifig with the chainsaw from the Arctic Icebreaker set "Malcolm", after this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Fd7a51P8o
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285
    @andrew - Aaron has reached out to me about scheduling a Skype call

    I still don't quite get why moving wiki pages from one campaign to another wouldn't have been a drag and drop kind of deal... if I use an html editor to create a inter-connected set of webpages, and FTP it all to a host server... all I have to do to change the mother directory in the URL (in this case we're talking about old campaign (nanopunk) and the empty vessel campaign I set up at Aaron's behest (hypatia)... so from https://nanopunk.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/name_of_wiki_page to https://hypatia.obsidianportal.com/wiki_pages/name_of_wiki_page) is copy the files from one folder in the cloud into another... seems it's a moot point for troubleshooting this problem, but it makes me question how much control you actually have over the cloud, or if it's become sentient and only a matter of time before it starts killing red-shirted ensigns before the first commercial break
  • ChainsawXIV
    ChainsawXIV
    Posts: 529 edited February 2016
    I'm virtually certain that campaign data is stored a database, not in loose files. That's standard operating procedure for online content, and consistent with the data in campaign backups and the file at the root of this issue. In that case, copying pages is possible, but requires a database admin with the appropriate skill set and knowledge of the schema to duplicate the entries, know which keys need to be updated to make them work in the new campaign, and manually update corresponding indices - a process which isn't necessarily obvious, and could create entirely new bugs itself.

    On top of that, it's generally very bad form to manually intervene in a production database. It's a great way to end up accidentally destroying or damaging everyone else's data by simple human error.

    The net result is that copying pages properly is a feature unto itself that would need to be built if you want it to work properly and safely. It would be nice to have, but it obviously doesn't exist now, and it wouldn't make sense to wait on building that feature to test your issue.
    Post edited by ChainsawXIV on
  • andreww38
    andreww38
    Posts: 239
    ^ What he said.

    I've not seen it on a raw data level, but I'd imagine that each campaign is a self-contained entry within mongo DB, so it's not a mySQL DB, so there is some special TLC that needs to go into it.

    OP is like a big CMS, more similar to WPMU (wordpress multiuser), so we would require ruby coders + DB admins to do a copy, there's no easy way to drag-drop or do a remapping easily - the pages are contained with a DB, not loose files as Chainsaw mentioned above. So the problem is problematic due to:
    1) The issue isn't easily reproducible, hence the screen share request.
    2) The fix will involve creating a new feature (because it doesn't exist yet), figuring out the rules/filters, then coding it.

    This is not an isolated issue though. There are quite a number of issues similar to this, so we need to allocate resources to fixing them as they affect pockets of users (eg: blocks of 5-10 on the average). Multiply that by 100 issues, then you can see that this is like the programming equivalent of "sim city".

    We have some big fixes that are underway, that are being held up as big KPIs for OP, once those are out of the way, we'll start attacking the myriad of smaller errors that have been reported (eg: a number dating to 2013-2015).
  • Tau_Cetacean
    Tau_Cetacean
    Posts: 285 edited February 2016
    okay, I get now that it's not a series of separate files like I'd assumed... I had asked in the private bug report thread and it got ignored

    "1) The issue isn’t easily reproducible, hence the screen share request."

    it happens in excess of 90% of the time now (though it started ~50% of the time in July 2014 when I first reported it), when trying to edit any existing wiki page or create a new wiki page... from multiple computers / different browsers... from different accounts... for a year and a half now

    seems pretty reproducible to me
    Post edited by Tau_Cetacean on
  • AaSampson
    Posts: 20
    Hello everyone. After the Skype conversation with Tau_Cetacean we've successfully packaged this issue for Tech. A screen share allowed us to flesh out a few details to technical support that our original diagnosis did not contain. Special thanks to Tau for taking the time to run this over with me and providing amble resources/details and Chainsaw for the diagnosis on the issue, we've passed your observations along to tech as well. OP will keep this thread updated as the fix rolls out.
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