Levels of Magic vs Technology

Lxcharon

Discussion time!

I was reading other people's campaigns, (specifically Vladimiravich's "Lux Tenebrae":https://campaign-40374.obsidianportal.com/ ) When I came to the realization that while I have a strong concept of religion and science in my world, I haven't really thought of Magic's place in the world, especially with the advent of technology in the world and an industrial revolution. I have a tendency to forget magic when creating roleplaying worlds because (funny because creating magic systems is normally the first place I start when writing stories) I think because playing mostly D&D they've watered down their magic so much it feels more like a video game mechanic than a breathing part of the world.

Aaaaannnywaaay, How does magic and technology interact in your campaign? Does magic give room for the advancement of science? Does science end up replacing magic? I'm interested to see how you guys do it.

Abersade

In my setting it basically depends on the region. Countries that contain intersecting magical leylines tend to rely more heavily on arcane magic and elementals, whereas Crinoa (a floating continent completely devoid of leylines) is more technologically advanced. Magic use tends to be a quicker but less stable path to power as well, so the political leanings/alignment of the region's ruling body plays a role. My setting contains a plethora of types and styles of magic, most of which are poorly understood at best, so many of the less educated choose to abstain from dealing with magic altogether due to a general distrust of where its power is drawn from. Religion plays a part as well, the followers of Proteus (essentially my variation of the Machine God) strive for technological advancement as their divine purpose; regions where these followers hold sway tend to be more industrially focused.

-Abersade
DM of "Rise of the Durnskald - Wrath of the Fallen Goddess":https://rise-of-the-durnskald.obsidianportal.com/

Keryth987

Well, my campaign is based on the Dresden Files, which is Modern Fantasy, so magic, Faeries, the whole gamit, are present. Then I've thrown in things like Slayers (from Buffy), Immortals (from Highlander, which there was ONLY one movie btw :) ), Half-bloods (form Percy Jackson) and a few other things. Magi is important but not commonly known or believed in. Most people in my world live everyday next to Fae and wizards, ghouls and vampires, and dont even know it. Magic can be powerful, but taxing, on the caster, but unlike D&D, can do pretty much anything the player can think of, within reason. Its a fun campaign world and my players enjoy the stories which have come out of it. As for its effects on technology, technology progresses same as it does in our world, and magic has little influence on that progress, being something most people think is all alot of "simple tricks and nonsense"

Keelah Se'lai,
Keryth
"Shadows Over New York":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shadows-over-new-york
"2013 Campaign of The Year":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/2013-coty-shadows-over-new-york/
"Campaign of the Month July 2013":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/shadows-over-new-york-julys-campaign-of-the-month/

twiggyleaf

My campaigns are magically high and technologically low. There is no gunpowder, and alchemical interactions, although from today's point of view seen as "scientific", are still viewed as magic by the inhabitants of the world.

Where something does occur that is similar in nature to a modern technological phemonemon, e.g. electricity, it is still just seen as "magic" by the inhabitants.

twiggyleaf
CURRENT CAMPAIGN: "Mysteria":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/mysteria - set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.
Previous CotM Aug 2012: "Shimring":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shimring

GamingMegaverse

My current campaign is similar to Twiggyleaf's- Magic is accepted as real, and technology is considered magic or from the gods. The original people in my campaign had a laser that was dubbed "The Light of Ra".
killervp
"A God...Rebuilt":https://a-god-rebuilt.obsidianportal.com

Maesenko

Technology in my campaign world has only advanced to about the era of basic machinery, with the most noticeable being clock towers which require live-in caretakers to maintain daily and the occasional prototype explosive/firearm. Magic has otherwise flavored most of the other few examples of technology in the world (e.g. elevators are basically levitating boxes or rocks), because "what's the point of developing a nonmagical means of doing something when it's far easier to cast a spell?" Of course, magic isn't entirely pervasive or even usable by everyone, but it's not out of place in the world. It's an accepted force even among most uneducated peasants (but of course, there are still bigots and fear-mongers). And although tech level often varies by region, even magitech is only available to varying degrees (e.g. airships exist in a mostly stable prototypical form, but can't travel over water or far off from predetermined paths). It's often seen as an expensive luxury, not something the average person will ever own (though they may use in a community).

Hope that made some sense, it's always been a grey area to me and is kind of hard to put to written word.

cgregory

Generally my players don't like guns to touch their magic. The exception is in Shadowrun where they are perfectly happy that high tech meets magic.

But that's not always the case. How I treat technology depends on how I treat wizards. But I usually have the two interact through class warfare. If almost anyone can do magic with proper training, then magic is seen as common and technology is viewed as the choice of the wealthy, the elite. After all, only the rich can afford the best technology.

If on the other hand, magic ability is something only a few bloodlines can learn (those strongest in the bloodline are sorcerers rather than wizards) then magic is the tool of the aristocrats, while technology is viewed a the commoner's tool. After all, what nobleman would be caught dead handling guano (I use a different material component for fireballs), or sweating at a forge in order to fuel his magic.

Sometimes, I mix it up a bit, magic is the province of the old aristocrats, while technology is the seen as belonging to the nouveau riche nobles or the merchant class. The same holds true with medical technology vs the churches. The church is usually against the advances in medicine as it cuts into their profits.

New inventions (or even the hint of new inventions) can be cause for some great urban adventures as guilds move against inventors. I remember an dungeon magazine adventure where the quill merchants guild assassinated the inventor of the printing press, that resulted in a murder mystery adventure.

Lxcharon

ABersande, having a god that deals with machines and technology is a concept that I didn't even think of, and I like it. In my campaign I have scientists preach atheism rather than having a religious leaning. Twiggyleaf and Killervp you guys run what I normally run, a classic swords and sorcery world with no technology, which is why my current campaign which takes place in the fantasy equivalent of the Georgian Era (late 1700's) and the beginning of the industrial revolution, is a little alien to me.

Keryth, my actual novel has the same concepts, being modern day with magic being secret so it doesn't influence technology. This is also the Star Wars way, where it's not secret so much as so rarely used that it doesn't influence technology. I'm thinking this maybe the route I go. Or not secret but as cgregory said something that only certain people have access too. Like the rich.

Now I'm starting to think about Leylines and how magic is in everyone, but only the very wealthy can afford to send their children to the Magic Academies to learn magic, that way it gives way to magic being used by random npcs if I need it (because technically everyone can use it) but learning to use it costs so much it removes it from the hands of most of the population and therefor science is created to fill the gaps.

Creating a believable, breathing world is so important to me and my story telling, hence the reason i'm always asking these questions haha.

twiggyleaf

Lxcharon

I think William Gibsonesque steampunk type stuff would fit pretty well with the Georgian era. You can also bear in mind that it was just after Isaac Newton so there would be quite a bit of "NEW SCIENCE" stuff that you could throw in to the mix.

twiggyleaf
CURRENT CAMPAIGN: "Mysteria":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/mysteria - set in Wolfgang Baur’s MIDGARD.
Previous CotM Aug 2012: "Shimring":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/shimring

Lxcharon

Definitely steampunkesque, but I want to stay away from the basic victorian tropes! And I think I'm leaning on the fact that having magic has impended development of both society and science for years, and now that magic is losing its grip on the people there's this pressure cooker-like explosion of technology.

Basileus

My gut says that in a world with magic, it would be indistinguishable from science. Scientists or natural philosophers would measure, define, and exploit magic just like any force in the real world, so there wouldn't really be a sense of duality about it anymore than there is about science and gravity or magnetism (for example) in the real world.

BUT, one of my favorite "magic versus technology" settings is from an old game called Arcanum, which was basically a Tolkien-esque fantasy world in the wake of an industrial revolution. Magic and technology became opposed forces (something to do with technology stabilizing and harnessing natural forces, while magic bent and broke the natural order). Quite fun watching technologists' guns explode in their hands when they tried to shoot at a mage, hehe! Since tech was the rising power, magic was becoming more heavily scrutinized and regulated, and races that traditionally were strongly magical had a lot of social conflict. Mages had to ride in a "special" caboose at the back of the train so as to be as far as possible from the steam engine and minimize risk of causing malfunctions.

Lxcharon

I've always believed in a world with magic, there would be no science, being as they fill each other's roles. Like why invent trains if magic can teleport you places? Or electricity if magic can light candles and keep them burning. etc

I will have to definitely check out Arcanum (I remember that game coming out, but never playing it) It definitely looks like a game I can gleam ideas from.

cgregory

Lxcharon a god dealing with science and technology is actually a fairly common. Forgotten Realms has Gond ,the God of Invention, who introduced gunpowder.

TORG (That Other Roleplaying Game) mixed magic and technology by having different realms force their realities on various geographical locations. For example, England now had magic and 1800s technology, more advanced technology didn't work once it entered that area, unless you were a Storm Knight and able to temporarily force your native reality work in your immediate area. While Japan had advanced technology from the 2050s, but no magic.

Malifaux, Through the Breach offers a nice mix of magic and wild west/steampunk technology. Earth has no magic anymore, but the horror World of Malifaux has magic and it has physically concentrated magic, Soul stones, that can be transported back to earth to be used like a battery pack for the former Mages on Earth

http://www.wyrd-games.net/through-the-breach/

Lxcharon

Haha, it's true, even Haephestus, the greek god, is a god of invention, including many stories saying he built automatons. I guess my selective memory just chooses to ignore these things.

And the issue I have with TORG (well not really with TORG because they're different dimensions and so it makes more sense) as well as many other worlds that use differing levels of tech is that historically I don't find it believable. Countries that touch don't have that big of a gap in tech. Even colonial america and europe were fairly close and it would take months and months for any travel or communication between them. The idea that country A is running around in magitech robots and neighboring country B is in the dark ages just doesn't ring true to me. Like even if one was protecting their secrets, the other would be trying to emulate or steal the ideas.

Basileus

RE: Arcanum

Its definitely worth picking up on GOG if you can stand the old isometric RPG interface (and spare $5 or however much). An incredibly atmospheric, detailed, and well-written game, I still go back and play it periodically, though admittedly through the lens of nostalgia (I'm not sure how it would hold up to fresh eyes today).

GrayGriffin

The current OP game I'm in takes place in a heavily modified Pokemon universe, so science and magic go quite well hand-in-hand. We have both an android (technically gynoid) and a magical construct as player characters. We have two characters who can speak to inanimate objects, including electronics. Although as of now the magical side is a bit stronger, since we've been doing a lot of traveling through several shrines, which give us plenty of chances to have vaguely magical occurrences happen.

Lxcharon

I'm going to have to check out that game graygriffin, a pokemon roleplay sounds interesting.