D-20 Ancient Greece help

WolfLord

Hey guys! Okay so basically I am running a secondary campaign set in Ancient Greece. I will paste the premise below or you can pop over to the campaign and read the home page: "Age of Heroes":https://heroes-of-hellas.obsidianportal.com/
So far I have downloaded the books "OGL Ancients" as well as "The New Argonauts" and they definitely have some promise but i was wondering if anyone has used something for a similar setting that they like? Mainly I want their to be a lot of options combat wise while keeping the power level down, and making things like the shield and spear fighting of a hoplite much more dynamic, as well as a way watered down spellcaster based on witches, priests/clerics to different gods, and oracles.

Here is the intro description as seen on the front page:

This is the second campaign I will be running alongside Avatar: Conquest of the Imperial Order. The campaign takes places right around 500 B.C. at the time Athens is being reformed as a Democracy, after the former corrupt leaders of Athens are exiled with the help of the Spartans. The campaign will take place mainly in Greece but may also include lands as far as Egypt, Arabia, Persia, India, Gaul to the West and the Germanic Tribes to the North. The protagonists will be three young adults living in Greece (15-18) who for individual reasons travel to Arcadia in southern Greece to learn the arts of mercenary monster slaying.

The ancient gods as well as mythical creatures will exist, and historical events will be occurring around the players, as well as many side plots involving gods, monsters, or citizens of various nations. The rules will be a variant of D-20 tailored to the Ancient Greek world. There will be custom magic users with powers derived from the worship of specific gods. It will be hard core in terms of survival needs, leveling will be very slow, and the max level will be somewhere between levels 5 and 10 with all levels above being reserved for Demi-Gods or other mythical beings. Gods will vary in power from levels 10-30 depending on their status in the pantheon which will be described in great detail. Races will all be human, but with different racial stats depending on the region of Greece the character is from.

The lifespan of the characters and their activities throughout these historical events will be entirely up to the players decisions. Everything from diet, cleanliness, lifestyle, and injury will be taken into account to decide the lifespan of the players. It can be assumed that the players are above average Greeks and will be considered elite or Heroes by their fellow Greeks at some point through the course of the campaign. The possibility of prolonged life due to the discovery of magical artifacts of legend or holy sites is also a possibility. Such legends will be covered in detail, but must largely be initiated by the players for their own reasons.

"Avatar: Conquest of the Imperial Order":https://avatar_adventures.obsidianportal.com/
"COTM November 2011":http://blog.obsidianportal.com/november-11-campaign-of-the-month-avatar-conquest-of-the-imperial-order/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=november-11-campaign-of-the-month-avatar-conquest-of-the-imperial-order
"Duskreign’s Favorite COTM January 2012":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/wyrmshadow/wikis/012012

WolfLord

I've got nothing as far as content yet just getting the rule system down first and some campaign starting concepts. World events will be easy though cause im a huge history buff and the real history (which is very dynamic) will be transpiring around the players, along with my own sub/side plots including mythological creatures/gods/battles/dungeons/artifacts/quests/curses/etc...

twiggyleaf

Nice looking pages so far, TW!

twigs

WolfLord

Thanks Twigs! The feel of it is definitely exciting. And talk about source material.

twiggyleaf

LOL! Yeah, I'm sure you'll be able to get a fair amount of googling done on "ANCIENT GREEK STUFF".

twigs

GamingMegaverse

Nice looking start there Tolsimir!!

Maesenko

If you can get your hands on a copy, I'd highly recommend "The Landmark Thucydides" for a reference to all things Ancient Grecian. I had to read parts of it for college along with the Iliad, and I kept the book largely because of the maps and such inside.

_~Mae_
"Whispers in Tamris":https://whispers-in-tamris.obsidianportal.com/

WolfLord

That is actually super helpful thanks Maesenko. The Peloponnesian War will likely be the last arc of the campaign and it is super involved this book has a lot of details i can reference. Well i pulled together some rules for ancient combat that make it more interesting from a couple similar settings. it isnt polished yet bet let me know what you guys think if u take a peek. The premise is basically that armor doesnt add to AC, but instead absorbs a certain amount of damage and eventually breaks if it takes too much. In addition, players get to try and dodge out of the way of attacks every time someone swings at them (and they arent flat footed or anything) and people wielding shields get to try and make a opposed role to block attacks, their blocks per round level up just like a BAB. Here is a link to what i have so far. have not tested it at all yet but it looks promising.

Go there and then click the combat link

"Rules":https://heroes-of-hellas.obsidianportal.com/wikis/rules

saethone

The Theophagie campaign below is a d-20 setting that has a lot of greek culture in it (several historical pantheons exist side by side, but greek is prominent). You're welcome to glean that for any info that might be helpful
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"Theophagie":https://theophagie.obsidianportal.com/ - Houseruled D&D 3.5 in Alternate History Earth
"Zeroed":https://zeroed.obsidianportal.com/ - GURPS Cyberpunk-Sci-Fantasy

WolfLord

That is definitely very similar in theme to the kind of thing im going for Saethone, i just might have to find some inspiration in there thanks for the share =P

WolfLord

ALRIGHT so I have the basic combat mechanics done. If any of you are interested enough to read it through and give me any thoughts you have on how well it will work please let me know! The idea is for combat to be much more active, a lot more trying to dodge or block attacks instead of just did you pass the AC or not. Good luck!

"Combat":https://heroes-of-hellas.obsidianportal.com/wikis/combat

Beaumains

D&D (3.5 anyway) seems to have ripped 1/3 of their monsters from greek mythology, including Medusa & the hydra. I would just strip out all races that didn't fit, along with the arcane spellcasters (and possibly some of the others - e.g. the monk & rogue) and any items that didn't fit (e.g. monk weapons - I'd keep most of the armor since the Spartans' full get-up was basically full-plate or similar heavy armor), then use the Greek Pantheon from the Deities & Demigods sourcebook (which also conveniently lists the monsters from the 1st MM that were "ripped" from greek mythology). As far as expanding spear & shield use (for that closer-to-"300" look & feel), I'd add new feats allowing those proficient to do cool stuff with them, though there are already a lot of feats that would be quite applicable to a hoplite-esque combatant. I wouldn't worry too much about artificially deflating hp or HD, and just let the players know that the campaign probably wouldn't run all the way up to level 20.

Hope this helps!
-Beaumains

WolfLord

Thanks for the tips! Thats why i wanted to do it in the first place, so much D&D material is inspired by it anyways. Arcane magic is out but a lot of the other stuff works. Im making the level cap for humans at 10, demigods and gods get to go 20+ so that makes things easy for me. In addition, instead of there being different races i decided on there being stat changes dependent on what region of the world you are from (Sparta, Athens, Egypt, Thebes, Persia, etc...) It is definitely coming together i found some source materials that adds a lot of unique D-20 mechanics for hoplite warfare

Beaumains

Addendum

Since you've gone and written up custom combat rules, and assuming you might be interested at all in making things easier on yourself, I'll just say that what you have is essentially a recreation of the modified D&D combat system, specifically using the Defense Check variant, among other things: Passive Defense = Flat-footed AC, Size mod table is just size to AC vs Size to Atk, there's a feat in the DMG II for phalanx fighting (i.e. covering your neighbor), I do kind of like tying the use of a shield to # of attacks - though you should just make it "just like Active Defense, except you get to add a bonus for using a shield," and adding in rules for armor condition is cool too, but you could just as easily rule that every time you get hit, and you don't take damage, your armor or shield takes damage instead (reduced by DR as appropriate). Generally I'd say that what you have, while admirable, is more than you need to get at what you want, and a great big headache in and out of combat (which you want to keep speedy).

I recommend, instead of making all these separate checks, you could describe the action based on attack rolls vs AC rolls. For example, using standard D&D 3.5 numbers, suppose two characters have the following stats: array 15 13 14 8 12 10, human Ftr 1, heavy shield, breastplate, spear/shortspear, improved shield bash, dodge, and weapon focus (spear/shortspear). You could then break down their AC as follows: 0-10 complete miss (didn't even hit the space they were in or the space they moved into), 11-12 (would've hit, but they were too quick/agile, or dodged out of the way just in time), 13-14 (your blow glanced off their shield), 15-19 (your blow got passed their shield but was stopped by their armor, helmet if particularly high). Now, because you're using "Active Defense", that 0-10 space gets replaced by the range of the die roll - e.g. if they roll a 6, that becomes 6 or less, but if they roll a 14, it becomes 14 or less, and from there (whatever the roll was) you add on the spaces in order, starting with dodge/deflection/dexterity types of defense, and ending with the innermost type of armor (e.g. natural armor). If you roll attack & damage together, you can apply the damage roll to character, armor, shield, or nothing as appropriate.

Hope this helps!
-Beaumains

WolfLord

You know those are some really great ideas im gonna have to do some combat testing to see how that works. It certainly would speed things up the current idea takes a lot of extra rolling... I do tend to be overly ambitious and overthink these things so it might be a bit overblown haha. Another thought i had to speed things up was give all players the ability to just take 10 on the check to see if the attack hit their armor or them, but speed of play is definitely something i will need to take a closer look at ive been very overly focused on the "feel" of dynamic ancient combat. This requires playtesting...

Cheers thanks for the great advice! Will return with further notes/concerns very soon im sure

WolfLord

Alright I'm gonna make two playtest versions, one with the changes described by Beaumains above and one as is but with the ability to take 10 on all coverage checks (checks to see if a successful attack hits the armor or the character) as long as that character is aware of the attack and not flat footed. Anyone else who does a read through and has ideas on balance, speed, etc please post any and all thoughts you have!!!

Here is the combat link again
"Age of Heroes: Combat":https://heroes-of-hellas.obsidianportal.com/wikis/combat

Beaumains

Hey Tolsimir, I totally get the tendency to "overthink" and do it all the time myself - just ask killervp, haha. Allowing players to "take 10" on their defense roll (in either variant), would effectively return the system to standard D&D, and based on what you've said so far, that sounds like the complete opposite of what you want; really your big question is whether you want players to be rolling their defense once per round, or roll off vs every relevant attack; whichever you decide, be sure to stay consistent. I would recommend rolling off, as it would 1) average out better - few things suck as badly as getting a 1 on your defense for a whole round vs a bunch of guys who could totally abuse that, and it wouldn't put a big red target on characters who rolled a low AC; and 2) make the game more feel more active and like a battle or skirmish.

Cheers!
-Beaumains

GamingMegaverse

I know nothing... it is well established....

WolfLord

Well the taking 10 i was only going to do for the coverage check, not the defense check. This is definitely the main thing i am wrestling with right now i overthink things to death. The test this week should help, but im having all of these same thoughts and im at a loss haha. Let me summarize what i have in my head though.

1) Someone attacks you
2) You roll an Active Defense check, which is your attempt at dodging the attack and is opposed by their attack role
3) If you have a shield, you instead roll a Shield Defense check with a higher bonus to see if you block the attack, again opposing their attack role
4) Once they have confirmed a hit on you by beating either your Active Defense or your Shield Defense, you roll a Coverage check
5) Coverage check is a roll modified by how much of you is covered with armor and has a flat DC unique to each armor determined by what kind of weapon striking you
6) If you beat the DC the attack hits your armor, absorbing some of the damage, taking some itself (that is where the armor degradation comes in) and whatever damage is left the player takes. If you fail the DC, you take full damage
7) THAT (coverage check) is what i would allow taking 10 on.

Just want to make sure our overthoughts are on the same page hahaha. So my thoughts are that this would balance speed and skirmish type fighting. You still have to actively dodge or block attacks (1 roll per attack coming your way) but then can just take 10 to see if the attack is nerfed by your armor (while still making armor and armor damage important) and then players also can decide only to roll it themselves if it is a really nasty hit coming their way and they dont think taking 10 will cover it. Armor does not in any way make you harder to hit, it just has the potential to absorb different amounts of the damage when you are hit, based on how good the armor is.

Now the issue of AC being static and how much it would suck if you missed a bunch of rolls is a real concern. However, I am hoping by keeping the campaign low level (max level is 10 and very low progression) and by keeping the battles the players fight in have a fairly low number of enemies, it will simplify the number of enemies they players have to deal with, and the power of those enemies, but also make that low level combat more dynamic and compelling. Also, it feels like one of the only ways i have seen to make low level combat scary and have high stakes, which is needed for a realistic low level setting.

My overthoughts have been shared =/ i will definitely be trying your suggestions as well during the test this week though because i have very similar concerns. Thanks for all this great feedback too!

Beaumains

That does help clarify/simplify things Tolsmir; perhaps you should put that at the top of your combat rules page. In the interest of helping & simplifying things further for you, points 2&3 seem to be essentially (mechanically) the same, with the only difference being a bonus for the shield; you could simplify that by just stating that a shield bonus can apply to your Defense check. Given this flow, I think one AC check (and a corresponding DR check) for every attack would be the best all around for what you're trying to do.

WolfLord

Done! Good call, having a general concept before trying to read all that stuff should clear things up for people. Thanks for the continued advice!

Beaumains

No problemo! Be sure to let us know how it all turns out!