Saying Hello and Etiquette Question

LariusMcAvern

Hello everyone! I am completely new to Obsidian Portal and I wanted to say hi and ask a question before I put my foot in it!

What is the etiquette concerning linking to a fellow gamer's campaign wiki if it has great information you think your party could use? I am starting a Dark Sun campaign and I see that there is already information about generic things like Cities and Landscapes that is already fleshed out in other peoples campaign. Is it bad form to link to their description? I don't want to upset anyone and I thought I would check in first.

Thoughts?

DarkMagus

Greetings Larius and welcome to OP!

That's a good question. I can honestly say I don't think I've seen any one ask that yet. If it were me I would just send a message to the DM of the campaign or mention after the link that it is another DMs page and they did all the work there. The community here is very nice and I can't imagine anyone getting mad. I'm curious what other people will say about this.

"DarkMagus":http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/DarkMagus

LariusMcAvern

Thanks for the information DarkMagus, I was thinking something along the same lines of just asking the DM too. There is a lot of great generic information that people have complied together, but I didn't want to abuse anything or cause any bad feelings. Hopefully more people will have some thoughts on this idea, because I am curious what people are thinking.

Poutine_Paladin

Wow.....I can't believe this has never come up (at least in the half-year or so I've been around here) good question. Not sure if directly linking to someone else's site is the best way to go about putting information on your site, though. I would probably ask the GM of the site with the information I wanted to "link to" if I could "also use" it rather than link to his page of it...and transfer to my own site once permission was granted...maybe crediting them with the info on my page (depending on specificity of that copy, etc)

Not sure if I'm really saying what I mean.

Even if the info is "great generic information that people have compiled together," shouldn't you at least ask if you could use their compilation? And credit them with that use in some way?

Good discussion, though...how do you ethically "borrow" information or ideas, and what are the parameters for information gathering from other sites? I'm also looking forward to seeing some other thoughts on the matter.

Dusk? Gnunn? Arsh? Rase? What do you guys think about this?

Duskreign

Step 1: Write a message to the wiki owner explaining your intentions of using data from his or her wiki on your own.

Step 2: Find the data you are looking for.

Step 3: Copy/Paste the data onto a page on your wiki, or even better, paraphrase the data while adding your own ideas to the mix.

Step 4: Cite your source, preferably both before and after the copied or paraphrased text.

Step 5: If the wiki you got the information from is a Public wiki (you would know if it wasn't, because you wouldn't be able to see it unless you were a player in said campaign), this should suffice. If the owner of the data contacts you and asks you to take the info down, comply immediately and without question. Most likely, though, this won't happen.

Step 6: if the wiki you got the information from is a Public wiki, but there is a copyright notice on the main page, the home page, the page you got the data from, or the campaign owner's profile page, tick the GM ONLY option on the wiki page you made for this borrowed data, and await their written permission before making said page available to the public.

If you follow these steps, you can't really go wrong. Fair use is a really broad protection in this regard. If you aren't making a profit from the use of the data, and your use of the data does no harm to the originator of the data, and you have ensured that everyone knows who the data really belongs to, then you have no ethical worries to concern yourself about. If the content owner asks you to take the info down, and you refuse, then, and only then, would you be crossing a line.

Also, welcome to Obsidian Portal!!!


"Duskreign":http://www.obsidianportal.com/profile/Duskreign

"Wyrmshadow Campaign Setting":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/wyrmshadow

"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic

"The System":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/system

gaaran

Hello and welcome! Dusk covers everything pretty well there, just wanted to share my own experience with this. I stumbled across a campaign on here that was using "Melekar":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/melekar as the campaign setting for their game. My thoughts were immediately, "wow that's awesome, someone is using my campaign world as a setting", then, "hey, they never asked if they could use my stuff without giving me credit, those basards," to "I bet they didn't even think about it, so i'll send them an amicable message".

They replied quickly and apologized for not linking back to my page, they had only used a little information so far (a new wiki) and claimed they forgot about it. So i told then that I was totally cool with them using my campaign setting, just that if they link to me or copy and of my text that they include disclaimers as you can see "here.":http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/so-5-elves-walk-into-a-bar It all worked out just fine, but just don't forget to let the people know and offer them credit where credit is due, we spend a lot of time working on these things :).

LariusMcAvern

Thanks to everyone who helped with this! I didn't want to start off putting my foot in it, lol!

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to answer and I am totally excited to start planning my darksun campaign. Thanks again!

twiggyleaf

An interesting question, Larius, and I agree that Duskreign's is most probably the best way to go about it. However, a simple link with a credit seems a much simpler option. Personally, I would be thrilled if anyone thought any of my stuff was good enough to use for their own. A credit would be more than enough reward, since I am not hoping to make any money from mass publication. The idea of links also dictates better communication between campaigns. If it were my choice, I would champion "Free for All" and not even enforce creditation, but not all people have such anarchic views.

Still, it is good this is being discussed!
My view is that all leaves should be twiggy i.e. have many links to many sources.

LariusMcAvern

Twiggyleaf,

I like that concept too, though I do think some sort of acknowledgment is good as well. I guess my original question is that there are some campaigns on the site that haven't "created" anything but merely taken the time to distill the hundred different DnD resources into something easy to read. In this concept while they have "created" the page the info is one, they haven't created the information merely complied it. So in the case of Dark Sun, I have found multiple pages that have the basics of Tyr and other cities already typed out. Would it be appropriate to link to them and save myself time since the data is already readily available or not? That was the debate I was having and I think Duskreign came up with a good solution.

On your side of the fence I like the concept of creating/building a self-supportive community that develops a world together through inter crossing links of information. This takes the site from a simple data collection resource for you campaign and really expands it into a conversation as people build up on the foundation made by others. I think that would be great, and I am surprised that when I joined last week that this conversation hadn't come up before. I firmly believe in giving credit where credit is due and even taking the time to compile data together is worth recognition, but is it ethical to link to it if the author doesn't want you too, even if creator of the page merely read all the resource books and didn't create the History/Backstory/Date, etc themselves. Is it really their data to control since someone else wrote it.

Interesting debate I think.

Larius

gaaran

If the author in question copied and pasted information from the source into their work, then they have no claim to it. However, if they took the time to paraphrase and cite their sources, it becomes their work, technically. With all of the helpful people around, I'm sure that if someone didn't want you linking to their pages, you could just as easily find that Dark Sun information on a different page, created by someone more willing to share. Or you could always copy it from the source as well and link back to wizards. Better that, then to ruffle feathers unnecessarily. Technically, I don't think you can get in any sort of trouble for linking to someone's website, that's sort of the nature of the internet, but it's not really in the spirit of community to go against those wishes.

And Twiggy, speaking as someone who has put in a great deal of time and effort into creating my own game world, I would be honored if people thought my work was good enough to use for their own games, but I wouldn't be too happy about if they don't credit me. Take my "map":http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/map_images/185519/World_Map_-_Web.jpg for example. If anyone wanted to use it for their game, that would be awesome, but I spent a good 20 hours creating it from scratch in Photoshop, so I don't think a shout out is too much to ask.

Poutine_Paladin

"A special thanks to (insert name here) for compiling mass amounts of information for the community to share" on the site should do it, Larius. This particular community is huge on sharing resources and talent, but I agree with gaaran that you should acknowledge effort/time where it is due. No one on Obsidian Portal (that I've come across, anyway) is going to be pissed that you use their information (especially when it's not actually theirs, but a collection of others) but props are due for the time and effort it took to put it together, right?

Duskreign

None of us are entitled to assume that consent is a given, nor to presume that ownership of ideas will be honored.

But that does not mean that, as decent folk and members of a community, we should abandon respect for one another and simply take without heed out of sloth, envy, or greed.

If you like the info enough to take it, you should respect the creator enough to give them credit.

In my experience, everyone I've dealt with on Obsidian Portal shows each other at least that much respect.

RaseCidraen

At least that much respect indeed! This is the most honorable and respectful group that I've ever had the pleasure of belonging to!

twiggyleaf

I just wanted to point out that when I said I would not "ENFORCE" creditation, that does not mean I would not "ENCOURAGE" it. It is the courteous thing to do, and I would always recommend it.

FemmeLegion

Hrm. Now I'm thinking I should put a message directly on my campaign wiki saying "Hey, feel free to borrow this" or not. Well, okay, it'd be less "not" and more "um, why would you want *that*?". ;)

gaaran

Indeed Twiggy, I wasn't trying to imply that you were against it, merely trying to reinforce our desires for recognition :).

Duskreign

We can't assume that the person we are taking information from is okay with it, just because we would be okay with it if someone was taking information from us. The thing about people is, we are all different, and often vastly so.

Gaaran, your work is amazing, and you deserve appreciation and respect for what you have put into your work. Recognition may be the only payment we can ever hope to receive for what we put into this hobby. I therefore think that's the least we can ask for.

Also, Twiggy, we all know what you meant, buddy! I, too, wouldn't be so invested as to force people to cite my work. I would like to be notified, but except under the rarest of circumstances, I couldn't see myself saying "no." Like Gaaran, I'd be jazzed that someone liked my stuff enough to even want to use it.

We just shouldn't assume that our own valuation of our creations is consistent with the valuation of others for their work. For the record, if you want to use something from Wyrmshadow (can't imagine why you would), go ahead, but give me a head's up that you're doing so. Other people may not care to be notified if someone else is using their ideas, but I am invested enough to take a long-term interest in where my ideas wind up.

That is, after all, why we were labeling our contributions to the Fantastinomicon.

LariusMcAvern

Wow! I just wanted to say thank you to everyone. The discussion has been very encouraging and enlightening. I totally agree that hard work deserves recognition whether that is the creation of something original or the reference of something someone has complied. When I started the thread (other than to say hello for the first time) it was because I was worried about putting my foot in my mouth by doing something wrong. What I am glad to see is that there is great community interested in sharing their ideas, but also deserving of acknowledgment.

Strangely enough, for my own campaign I have discovered that compiling the information myself, rather than linking to another is actually helping me better understand the world and its in's and out's. So funny enough my original issue is resolved because writing it down myself is making it easier for me to recall when gaming.

I do want to say thanks again to the community though for embracing the spirit of the question and providing me with such good insight into the issues on both sides!

Larius

twiggyleaf

....and thanks to you, Larius, for opening what I regard as a very healthy debate!